Best possible N64 console query

[Link83]

Please dont think I am arguing, but I have mapped out the video circuitry on multiple PAL and NTSC SNES console revisions, and they are completely different, unnecessarily so. Later PAL SNES revisions had to use transistors after the video encoder to increase the Vpp to compensate for the resistors inside the cable - that isnt a logical way to design a video circuit. The NTSC SNES video circuitry follows ROHM's video encoder datasheets recommended layout exactly. It doesnt make sense to go against the video encoder manufacturers recommended layout and add extra components unless you had no choice.

There should be no difference in impendance across regions, and if that was the case the 75ohm resistors could easily have been added into the console itself - in fact it would have made a lot more sense if they were, as then it would have made the cables a lot cheaper to manufacture (No need to have separate production runs for each region)

The only logicial explanation I can come up with for Nintendo doing this is for 'region locking' - its not like Nintendo wouldnt do this, you only need to look at the PAL NES and PAL SNES controller lockout to see the efforts they went to in order to ensure people didnt buy anything imported.

Also keep in mind that Nintendo Europe were fined a huge amount for price fixing all thoughout the 90's:-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2375967.stm

Overall, I cant say for sure that it was done for region locking, and of course Nintendo Europe would never admit to it, but it does seem like the most logical explanation when you think about it

The one point to keep in mind is that the video cables are different depending on the region.

[smouty]

Sorry Link if you assumed I thought you were arguing. I know that is not the case and it wasn't my intention to infer that. Like yourself I find it amazing that something so simple could become such a minefield.
Even more amusing was the 'official' Nintendo s-vid cables for the PAL GC which I beleive didn't even output s-vid but I guess these could have been old stock of n64 cables.

[Link83]

Sorry Link if you assumed I thought you were arguing. I know that is not the case and it wasn't my intention to infer that. Like yourself I find it amazing that something so simple could become such a minefield.
Even more amusing was the 'official' Nintendo s-vid cables for the PAL GC which I beleive didn't even output s-vid but I guess these could have been old stock of n64 cables.

It still surprises me, so I totally understand For quite a while I couldnt quite believe it, and I kept trying to think of other possible explanations, but every explanation I thought of was ruled out when I started looking closely at the video circuit. In the end the only reason that made sense to me was some sort of 'region locking', but its still up for debate.

I remember quite a few third-party manufacturers were selling GameCube S-Video cables when the PAL GameCube was released! There was a whole rack of them at Dixons, with a couple of 'faulty' returns behind the counter I have never seen an official Nintendo S-Video cables for sale in the UK though, do you perhaps have a picture?

Even better than that though is the "Blaze Ultra 64 RGB Scart cable" for the N64, which had a small circuit board inside it that took the Composite signal and 'converted' it into RGB. As you can probably imagine, it resulted in a pretty awful picture, and there were even mods to try and improve it:-

http://playoffline.wordpress.com/cable/ultra64/

[egparadigm]

Link, have you thought about writing an article on the results of your Nintendo video research? I think Retro Gamer might be interested, in particular.

I have one of those weird Blaze Ultra 64 cables – they are truly bizarre, and the picture quality is no better than composite, if you ask me.

[djjimbob]

Right, did some testing tonight - although cut it short on some surprising results...

CRT TV:
With Argos Box and RGB ON: Perfect Picture
With Argos Box and RGB OFF: Almost black picture with graphics/text just visbile underneath lots of shadow
With bespoke Playtronix cable straight into TV: Perfect Picture

Sony LCD TV:
I only used the bespoke cable straight into the LCD TV.
All attempts resulting in severely distorted picture rolling vertically and horizontally whether set to PAL, PAL 60, SECAM, NTSC 358 or 443.
This same input was able to display PAL SNES and Dreamcast PAL 50 and 60 pictures OK

Panasonic LCD TV (the kitchen telly!)
With bespoke Playtronix cable straight into TV: Perfect Picture

So - there is definitely some odd processing the Sony LCD TV is attempting to do. It's a KDL-40W2000 by the way.

[Link83]

Link, have you thought about writing an article on the results of your Nintendo video research? I think Retro Gamer might be interested, in particular.

Thanks, but i'm no expert - all of this info is just what I have picked up through reading many threads over the past couple of years, and from making observations myself. You only have to read the first post of this thread to see how little I knew a few years ago! I still have a lot to learn though as I still dont full understand how everything 'works', I have just looked at lots of chip datasheets etc and certain things start to make sense. I dont think I yet know enough to write a proper article though (I didnt even think Retro Gamer went into such detail about modding/regional differences etc?)

I always try to put any interesting info out on the internet where possible in the hope that other people will find it useful. I added quite a bit of info to the gamesx wiki I linked to previously, and also made a thread about the video encoder chips used in the SNES and N64 consoles here:-

http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=3525.0

However, it was sad to see that there wasnt even one response I guess the problem is not that many people are still interested in the technical details of old consoles.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Right, did some testing tonight - although cut it short on some surprising results...

Hmm, when you look at the results it sounds like your N64 might be RGB modded(?) especially with all the mention of a 'bespoke' cable.

It could just be the Sony LCD TV, but it also sounds like it might be a problem with Scart switching voltages. Can you manually select the input on this TV? If so have you tried selecting the 'AV1' or 'RGB' setting using the remote?

Some other questions:-
- Were you able to perform any tests with an NTSC Composite cable?
- Are you definitely using the AV1/RGB Scart input on the Sony LCD TV?
- Are there any other devices hooked up to the Sony LCD TV (eg. Freeview, Sky etc) or only the N64? If possible I would remove all other connections just to rule them out as a cause.

As you are using a bespoke cable I cant say how its been wired up. Would you be comfortable taking pictures inside the Scart plug casing? or do you have a digital multimeter?

[djjimbob]

Some other questions:-
- Were you able to perform any tests with an NTSC Composite cable?
- Are you definitely using the AV1/RGB Scart input on the Sony LCD TV?
- Are there any other devices hooked up to the Sony LCD TV (eg. Freeview, Sky etc) or only the N64? If possible I would remove all other connections just to rule them out as a cause.

As you are using a bespoke cable I cant say how its been wired up. Would you be comfortable taking pictures inside the Scart plug casing? or do you have a digital multimeter?

- I don't have an NTSC Composite cable
- Yes, definitely using RGB Scart. I tried both Scarts just in case. My Sky box is plugged into AV1 as backup and I unplugged that to test.

I can try and prise the scart cable open for photos...

[Link83]

- I don't have an NTSC Composite cable
- Yes, definitely using RGB Scart. I tried both Scarts just in case. My Sky box is plugged into AV1 as backup and I unplugged that to test.

I can try and prise the scart cable open for photos...

Were you able to try and manually select the RGB input on the Sony LCD TV?

You might want to consider trying an NTSC Composite Video or S-Video cable first, before you decide to open the Scart plug, as the problem might just be this TV doesnt like whatever RGB mod has been done to this N64 (If there is one, its still just an assumption at this point) In which case I cant think of a 'simple' way of fixing it (i.e. one that wouldnt involve any soldering)

However, if you still want to have a look inside the scart plugs for curiosities sake, heres how...

To open the Scart plug you usually just unscrew the collar and then it opens in two halfs like a book. To put it back together you just close the two halfs and screw the collar back on - just be careful not to trap any wires in the process.

I would be aiming to look at pins 8, 16 and 20 if you can:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCART
(Pinout down the right hand side)
There should be a wire going to pin 8, and usually a resistor joining pin 8 to pin 16. Scart pin 20 is the composite video input, but unfortunately without a multimeter it probably wont be possible to check if it connects to the composite video output pin on the N64's Multi Out plug (It might be connected to the composite sync output pin instead)

Please note that I take no responsibility should anything go wrong though!

[Mayhem]

I have a Sony Bravia (W4000 in fact) and my RGB modded US N64 works fine on it. Very odd indeed I have to say...

[mmmonkey]

ooh, try the N64 bespoke cable plugged into the the second AV socket on your Sky box (marked video I think), and leave the sky box plugged in to your RGB socket on the telly.

When you switch on the N64, the sky box should pass the signal through, and it may tidy up any quirks.

When I had an NTSC cube with custom RGB lead, it was the only way to get it to work on my telly.

[Link83]

ooh, try the N64 bespoke cable plugged into the the second AV socket on your Sky box (marked video I think), and leave the sky box plugged in to your RGB socket on the telly.

When you switch on the N64, the sky box should pass the signal through, and it may tidy up any quirks.

When I had an NTSC cube with custom RGB lead, it was the only way to get it to work on my telly.

Good suggestion I dont have a sky box so didn't know it had a second AV socket.

[djjimbob]

ooh, try the N64 bespoke cable plugged into the the second AV socket on your Sky box (marked video I think), and leave the sky box plugged in to your RGB socket on the telly.

When you switch on the N64, the sky box should pass the signal through, and it may tidy up any quirks.

When I had an NTSC cube with custom RGB lead, it was the only way to get it to work on my telly.

Will give this a go.

[charlesr]

my jpn RGB modded n64 - didnt work on my old bravia LCD, I cant imagine why you would want to display it on an LCD, the resolution of the N64 output is so low, it looks terrible.

Best option

RGB modded n64
Sony trinitron 14" flatscreen

I had the same problem until I got a proper RGB chip added to the N64. It didn't work on my plasma properly, but now it looks amazing. Easily as good as on my Sony 21" 4:3 and better colours.

[punio75]

I had the same problem until I got a proper RGB chip added to the N64. It didn't work on my plasma properly, but now it looks amazing. Easily as good as on my Sony 21" 4:3 and better colours.

So in theory if I were to buy a RGB modded N64 then I could run it perfectly on a LCD/Plasma without getting a sony Trinitron ?

[charlesr]

Depends on the mod and the LCD/plasma in question (there are 4 different mods).

The simple 3wire mod with internal booster bridge worked fine on my plasma but gave interference.
The 3wire mod with scart amp looked lovely on my crt but gave horrendous cross hatching on my plasma.
I haven't tried the chip foot lifting method.
The RGB chip mod looks perfect on both.