Consoles reaching their full potential late in their life cycle...

[samanosuke]

I never saw many Amiga or Amiga 1200 games scroll like Sonic II , for example .

I believe the A1200 could've easily had games as fast as, if not faster than, Sonic had it been pushed. Its 68020 is much more powerful than a 68000. The problem was, penny pinching Commodore fitted the A1200 with just chip RAM and no fast RAM, meaning that one needed to install fast RAM to get the full potential from the processor. I still think it could've handled a Sonic game without fast RAM though as games which use the extra power tend to run 1.5 to two times faster than they would on an A500 or around three times faster if RAM is installed. The faster AGA chipset also contributes towards this.

[Leon Retro]

Why not go the whole hog and have 4096 on-screen colours, even more mode effects, loads of PCM and FM sound channels with a co-pro to take some load off the CPU and an overclocked 68000 that has even more power for impressive 2D? Oh yes, that's right, there was a machine like that called the Neo Geo and it cost a bomb.

Calm down, dear, I was only talking about having a 68000 instead of the rubbish that Nintendo chose[65c816]

That's just like saying a Mega Drive with the Snes GPU , would have killed most machines . Like I said they were plenty of other machines that used the 68000 chip . I never saw many Amiga or Amiga 1200 games scroll like Sonic II , for example .
At the end of the day , we can only go on , with what the machines shipped with .
And to me the Mega Drive was pushed far harder than a lot of other consoles , some of its latter games , were amazing demo's of the hardware and the programmer skills

The MegaDrive had the 68000 in 1988 and it wasn't an expensive console. By the 1990, the 68000 was an old chip.

Nintendo probably went with the 65c816 because of the NES situation, and maybe because of very low cost? We all know how cheap Nintendo can be.

I will maintain that the SNES could have had the 68000 and still have sold for around the same price.

It makes me laugh how fired up some people get about a 'what if' discussion. It's just a bit of fun.

I believe the A1200 could've easily had games as fast as, if not faster than, Sonic had it been pushed. Its 68020 is much more powerful than a 68000. The problem was, penny pinching Commodore fitted the A1200 with just chip RAM and no fast RAM, meaning that one needed to install fast RAM to get the full potential from the processor. I still think it could've handled a Sonic game without fast RAM though as games which use the extra power tend to run 1.5 to two times faster than they would on an A500 or around three times faster if RAM is installed. The faster AGA chipset also contributes towards this.

I fully agree with you. What I will say is that I feel most European devs( especially British ) ... weren't very good at programming. You have the odd exception, but on the whole... Euro programmers didn't have a clue about game design or doing amazing things.

I think a good Japanese team would have done 2D wonders with the 1200 tech. Say, for example, that you gave SonicTeam the 1200 in 93, I'm sure they would have made a breathtaking Sonic game for it.

Before anyone attacks me about putting down Euro devs, I will say that 80% were bad game makers - and 20% were very good. That's how I see it. I think the best Japanese devs were not only better designers, but also better technically. Japan definitely had more skilled developers back in the 8/16-bit age.

[Team Andromeda]

The MegaDrive had the 68000 in 1988 and it wasn't an expensive console. By the 1990, the 68000 was an old chip.

Nintendo probably went with the 65c816 because of the NES situation, and maybe because of very low cost? We all know how cheap Nintendo can be.

I will maintain that the SNES could have had the 68000 and still have sold for around the same price.

Both the Amiga had the 6800 chip , both running at similar speeds to that of the MD . I never saw many games that scrolled as good as Sonic .
You have to factor in other issues like the GPU and at end of the day , the programmers talent . I think Sonic owes a lot to Naka genius coding skills too
You know the MD was able to keep full BC mode , not at the expense of the main GPU .

[Yakumo]

I will say is that I feel most European devs( especially British ) ... weren't very good at programming. You have the odd exception, but on the whole... Euro programmers didn't have a clue about game design or doing amazing things.

I think that should be changed to American programmers. Just think back to the 16 bit days and to all the complete ****e games (especially the SNES) and see where they came from. Yep, 90% American. Europeans were actually quite good. For the SFC / SNES we had Star Fox 1 & 2, Donkey Kong Country series, Super Turrican 1 & 2, R2, Toy Story & Jim Power (both much better on the SFC / SNES) and so many others. True that the kings in the 16 bit days were the Japanese but I wouldn't say it was Konami as many seem to think. Sure, they had fantastic ideas and level design but their programming skills were not all there when it came to cleaning up the code. Not 1 Konami game is free of slowdown yet Compile with Super Aleste managed to push more stuff around the screen than any other SFC shooter and Mega Drive shooter (well, on par with TFV) with NO slowdown at all plus a kick ass sound track! Now that was skillful programming

Yakumo

PS: There are many fan boys on this site which is cool but to be blinded by this is not so cool. I'm a Sega man but even I know that a SFC with a faster CPU could have preformed wonders. The reason the Mega Drive was pushed was because of it's lack in effects. Programmers had to become creative and inventive while back on the SFC they were lazy for the most part just using the built in effect modes. Plus it was a painfully slow machine thanks to cheap ass Nintendo and their backwards compatibility with the Famicom that never happened.

[Leon Retro]

I think that should be changed to American programmers. Just think back to the 16 bit days and to all the complete ****e games (especially the SNES) and see where they came from. Yep, 90% American. Europeans were actually quite good. For the SFC / SNES we had Star Fox 1 & 2, Donkey Kong Country series, Super Turrican 1 & 2, R2, Toy Story & Jim Power (both much better on the SFC / SNES) and so many others. True that the kings in the 16 bit days were the Japanese but I wouldn't say it was Konami as many seem to think. Sure, they had fantastic ideas and level design but their programming skills were not all there when it came to cleaning up the code. Not 1 Konami game is free of slowdown yet Compile with Super Aleste managed to push more stuff around the screen than any other SFC shooter and Mega Drive shooter (well, on par with TFV) with NO slowdown at all plus a kick ass sound track! Now that was skillful programming

Yakumo

PS: There are many fan boys on this site which is cool but to be blinded by this is not so cool. I'm a Sega man but even I know that a SFC with a faster CPU could have preformed wonders. The reason the Mega Drive was pushed was because of it's lack in effects. Programmers had to become creative and inventive while back on the SFC they were lazy for the most part just using the built in effect modes. Plus it was a painfully slow machine thanks to cheap ass Nintendo and their backwards compatibility with the Famicom that never happened.

Yep.. there were plenty of ridiculously poor American games for the MD & SNES. What I really mean is that European devs weren't very good at game design. I guess that comes down to the Japanese being more professional back then - and having proper game designers working with the programmers. British devs had programmers doing the design, which I don't think many were good at.

Look at the likes of Shadow of the Beast: an awesome technical achievement, but let down by severely weak gameplay. A good Japanese dev would have made the experience much more solid in the gameplay department.
Then you have the platformers( Zool etc.. ) .. that weren't bad on a technical level( though nothing brilliant ) ... but had really really bad design.

Once I discovered the NES and then the MD & SNES - I realised how unsatisfying most Western platformers, shooters and action games were. The best Japanese games were miles ahead in delivering gripping, well thought out design and creative excellence.

I'm not slating all western devs. There were quite a few good games made in Britain, Europe and America, but on the whole... the Japanese definitely delivered better quality experiences.

I think you may be right about the MD situation. Obviously, devs had more scope to do impressive technical feats. To do rotation effects and scaling, you had to be clever, and some devs revelled in the challenge.
I'd also say that SNES devs had a challenge to get games running well, without slowdown. When you see ContraIII, DonkeyKongCountry, Macross etc... you know the developers were great at their jobs and put a lot of effort in.
Just look at the slowdown in some early SNES games. Developers overcame that hurdle, to produce a lot of games that pushed the machine.

That was definitely one of the fun things about 16-bit - the way the machines could be pushed and new visual effects could be created if you really put the effort in. It was a joy to see developers trying to outdo each other. Obviously, all machines get better looking games as they mature, but.. it's no so pronounced as with 16-bit tech. You really could notice when a dev was doing something extra special with the MD, SNES, Amiga etc...


I will defend Konami. They delivered a long list of great SNES games. All aren't 100% silky perfection on a technical level, but.. that's because they didn't play it safe. No.. they pushed the SNES by having creative ideas that made the machine sweat. I wouldn't say any of their games after GradiusIII were afflicted with any serious technical problems. Gradius was the result of not knowing the machine and bad programming. After that slight hiccup - Konami went on to thrill SNES owners with some of the best games ever made.

SuperAleste may be a great game, but I wouldn't say it's anything amazing on a technical level. The dev did well, but they crafted the game to make sure it didn't struggle. The pace is quite sedate and the visuals follow a clear formula. I'd say that Axelay is doing more impressive things( and more difficult) , and that's why it has a few rough edges.

[JazzFunk]

^Nice post, some good points made.

However, I think Axelay was one of the most underwhelming SNES/SFC games ever made - the Mode 7 vertical bits were never that good and the horizontal bits were so slow and easy that any 'surprises' the game throws at you (ED-209 clone etc.) just happened so boringly and easily, you couldn't really give a futch anyway.

If Konami'd simply done a pure, knockout, side-scroller with no cheap Mode 7 ****e, upped difficulty, it'd be spoken of in the same terms as Gunstar these days. But it isn't.

[Team Andromeda]

Yep.. there were plenty of ridiculously poor American games for the MD & SNES. What I really mean is that European devs weren't very good at game design. I guess that comes down to the Japanese being more professional back then - and having proper game designers working with the programmers. British devs had programmers doing the design, which I don't think many were good at.

I'm sorry that's wrong imo . Some of the best 16 bit days in the technical dept were from Western developers, especially true with the MD . The Snes onthe other had tons of rubbish games from Japan , not just in Gameplay terms, but also the technical dept.

[samanosuke]

If Konami'd simply done a pure, knockout, side-scroller with no cheap Mode 7 ****e, upped difficulty, it'd be spoken of in the same terms as Gunstar these days. But it isn't.

A decent port of Gradius III would've done. I liked the SNES port, even though many people seem to slate it, for playing a little different to the arcade. Also, the slowdown helps with those sodding bubbles on level two.

[samanosuke]

I'm sorry that's wrong imo . Some of the best 16 bit days in the technical dept were from Western developers, especially true with the MD . The Snes onthe other had tons of rubbish games from Japan , not just in Gameplay terms, but also the technical dept.

In reference to American developers not pushing hardware as well as European developers of the 16-bit era, it's not wrong when you look at the Amiga's catalogue; most European developed games pissed on their American counterparts from a technical standpoint. Whereas many US developed games would have jerky scrolling, 16 on-screen colours (usually due to them being ported from EGA PC games) and dodgy midi-esque music, European devs were producing games with a gazillion layers of silky-smooth parallax scrolling, amazing copper effects and thumping tunes.

[Leon Retro]

I'm sorry that's wrong imo . Some of the best 16 bit days in the technical dept were from Western developers, especially true with the MD . The Snes onthe other had tons of rubbish games from Japan , not just in Gameplay terms, but also the technical dept.

You think about poor games too much. When I think of the SNES - my mind is filled with thoughts of all the brilliant Japanese games.
Yes.. there are a few nice games for the system that were made in Europe & America, but most are lacking in some way or another.

If we have to think about the crap Japanese games, I will agree that there are ten tons of crap games for the system, but who cares? ... It doesn't mean anything, except the devs were a joke.

^Nice post, some good points made.

However, I think Axelay was one of the most underwhelming SNES/SFC games ever made - the Mode 7 vertical bits were never that good and the horizontal bits were so slow and easy that any 'surprises' the game throws at you (ED-209 clone etc.) just happened so boringly and easily, you couldn't really give a futch anyway.

If Konami'd simply done a pure, knockout, side-scroller with no cheap Mode 7 ****e, upped difficulty, it'd be spoken of in the same terms as Gunstar these days. But it isn't.

It's not funny to disrespect the mighty Axelay. ... It's one of the best and most popular shooters of all time. You may not get it, but.. plenty of people do and love it with all their heart.

I personally think each level is magnificent. The Mode effects are nice( though slightly dodgy, but who expects total perfection? ) ... It's the overall visual design of the levels that impresses me more than any technical feats. All the bosses are unforgettable and very well crafted. Then you have the music - which is excellent for every stage.

It blows my mind that someone can say they don't like Axelay.

In reference to American developers not pushing hardware as well as European developers of the 16-bit era, it's not wrong when you look at the Amiga's catalogue; most European developed games pissed on their American counterparts from a technical standpoint. Whereas many US developed games would have jerky scrolling, 16 on-screen colours (usually due to them being ported from EGA PC games) and dodgy midi-esque music, European devs were producing games with a gazillion layers of silky-smooth parallax scrolling, amazing copper effects and thumping tunes.

I fully agree. American devs were generally very poor during the 16-bit era. There were certainly exceptions, but not many to remember. British devs produced the most playable Amiga games; that's for sure. Euro devs were good at doing impressive technical wizardry - and often amazing music. I'd give British devs the Gold Medal for Amiga gaming greatness.

That's not to say that I think British Amiga devs were excellent. Most wouldn't have stood a chance on consoles, competing with the Japanese. I guess that's why British devs didn't go into the arcade industry - because they wouldn't have been able to compete against the best Japanese games.

I like games from all regions, but the majority of my favourites from the 8/16-bit era are Japanese produced titles. I think most gamers feel the same; especially those who happened to own consoles at that time.

[Team Andromeda]

You think about poor games too much. When I think of the SNES - my mind is filled with thoughts of all the brilliant Japanese games

You think about the SNES too much . They were many western developers that pushed 16 bit machines as hard as any Japanese developer .

I fully agree. American devs were generally very poor during the 16-bit era.

That's not really true . The trouble is , the Mega Drive enjoyed the best support from Western and American developers . And American developers produced some fine software , not that Snes owners would notice :P

[samanosuke]

That's not really true . The trouble is , the Mega Drive enjoyed the best support from Western and American developers . And American developers produced some fine software , not that Snes owners would notice :P

C'mon, let's roll out the old MD Aladdin vs SNES Aladdin argument.

(my vote goes to MD Aladdin)

[Team Andromeda]

C'mon, let's roll out the old MD Aladdin vs SNES Aladdin argument.

(my vote goes to MD Aladdin)

And I'll roll out Adv of Batman & Robin on the MD . Which thanks to the genius that is John O' Brien is handling multiple sprite 360 degree rotation on standard cart , something which I never saw in any SNES or Japanese developed game.

[nakamura]

C'mon, let's roll out the old MD Aladdin vs SNES Aladdin argument.

(my vote goes to MD Aladdin)

SNES for me.

[Yakumo]

That's not really true . The trouble is , the Mega Drive enjoyed the best support from Western and American developers . And American developers produced some fine software , not that Snes owners would notice :P

I'd love to hear what these games are. All US MD Dev' games were ****e IMO. And I don't rate Mortal Kombat or the crappy Eternal Champions either when I had much better Japanese Dev' fighters