Consoles reaching their full potential late in their life cycle...

[112]

No way! Soul Calibur 2 in 720p sh*ts on Halo as far as pushing the machine goes.

Really? looks like my memory is a bit hazy then........ Im sure i read in a mag back when Halo came out, that the developer believed the ypushed the console to about 80% or something........

Maybe im wrong then........ but im sure you know more about this type of stuff than me Takeshi-san

112

[Team Andromeda]

Agree, I sort of expected amazing things from the Snes thanks to the extra hardware and chips in the carts but games like Panorama Cotton and Red Zone on MD are doing things that shouldn't be possible on standard MD hardware. I remember with Red Zone, Zyrinx even included a screen before the game started stating all the effects the game had.

I'd probably include Ranger-X/Ex-Ranza as well, it was incredible looking, you'd be forgiven for thinking it was running on a Snes, I think that was mid 1993 though, so not sure if it counts as a title late in the Megadrives life cycle.

Spot on. I think most people forget , just what the MD did late in its life , with no extra chips or massive cart in Mega Sizes . Red Zone was incredible (bar problems with colour) Even games like Toy Story and Mickey Mania on the MD kept in all the Snes like effects (for the Snes counter parts) and in some cases were more Impressive

[Flabio]

A rule of thumb. When a developer publicly *says* they're pushing a console to it's maximum, they're probably lying. As the Burnout guys said 'why say that? isn't that just an admission that you've stopped trying?'

[samanosuke]

Really? looks like my memory is a bit hazy then........ Im sure i read in a mag back when Halo came out, that the developer believed the ypushed the console to about 80% or something........

Maybe im wrong then........ but im sure you know more about this type of stuff than me Takeshi-san

112

If that was true then Namco certainly got their money's worth from that extra 20%. And for the record I know buggery bollocks about technical stuff, I just used my eyes for my assessment so please forgive me if I'm completely wide of the mark.

[Leon Retro]

Saturn 2D was way above that, . To me most of what the Super Fx did in Yoshi (and I'm sure it was just using Super FX 1 chip) was what the Snes could have done , if NCL had given it a decent CPU from the start

I agree. The Saturn is way beyond the SNES( even with SFX ) when it comes to pushing 2D visuals around. It's soooo good - that people could still make impressive 2D games for it now.

The SFX could have been used for an Axelay2 & Contra4. It's a shame that the chip must have been too expensive for third party devs. Axelay & ContraIII did around 90% of what you can do with the basic SNES - so the graphical effects could only have been improved upon with an additional chip. It's a shame that it never happened. I think the SNES and its fans deserved a Contra4, Castlevania5, Axelay2.

True. Always depressing thinking back to the Super Famicom/Super NES, how much more awesome it'd have been with a decent CPU. I may be misremembering facts, but I recall that the crap processor was to enable some kind of backwards compatibility with the Famicom, which as we know was never a feature of the final hardware.

Nintendo had the idea of making the SNES backwards compatible with the NES, so they chose a processor that helped in that area. Unfortunately, the processor isn't very good - which really held back the performance of the machine. If Nintendo had gone with the 68000 - the SNES would have been able to shift far more sprites and do software effects, which would have resulted in even more impressive games - and the MD would have looked a complete joke in comparison.
The MD's saving grace was it's processor. That's why the Sonic games are so impressive and you get technical marvels such as ThunderforceIV.

Oh well, the SNES still has a lot of AAA titles. Konami showed that with a lot of skill, a developer could get a lot out of the machine.

[Team Andromeda]

If Nintendo had gone with the 68000 - the SNES would have been able to shift far more sprites and do software effects, which would have resulted in even more impressive games - and the MD would have looked a complete joke in comparison.
The MD's saving grace was it's processor. That's why the Sonic games are so impressive and you get technical marvels such as ThunderforceIV

That's being a bit silly , and like saying if one put a 68000 inside a Master System , or more so a PC -Eng it would kill the SNES . There were a lot of console and computers that used the 68000 chip , not least the Amiga , that couldn't handle some of the MD stuff could , Other factors like GPU and Memory ECT come into play .

That's also overlooking the difference a Mega Team game make . I don't care what people say , Many other machines could have had a 68000 in their machine , part of Sonic awesome graphics , is thanks to the genius like Code, that Naka wrote
What he did there , he had no right too , but somehow he pulled it off .

Shame SEGA does what it always does and moves people like this , up the ranks . Naka should have always remained on the R&D and programming side , not become a CEO or Producer

[CMcK]

The MD saving grace was it's powerful CPU. The SNES had generally superior custom graphics hardware that the MD couldn't match. But in all fairness the MD had a lot of CPU power to use for stuff like SFX as games like Gunstar Heroes, Red Zone, Ranger X, Corporation, TFIV and Toy Story all showed.

Regarding the original topic I think it's fair to say that the MD did reach it's full potential late on. I doubt that much more could have been achieved. The Mega CD did add some more GFX and a load more CPU power but was sorely under utilised even by impressive games like Soulstar and Batman Returns.
The SNES was different though. It's puny CPU meant it relied on additional chips in carts from day one just to utilise the graphics hardware properly. You could argue it reached it's full potential early on.
The 3DO I think was pushed pretty hard by games like Need for Speed, Space Hulk, Road Rash and PO'ed. Even Return Fire pushed a fair amount of geometry. It was also noticeable that a lot of the big EA games fared worse when ported to the PlayStation and Saturn.
The Saturn had a relatively short lifecycle but yielded some seriously impressive stuff though. Exhumed, VF2, Virtua Cop, Quake, Duke Nukem, and Burning Rangers really showed that it was a force to be reckoned with. As for the unfinished Shenmue footage that was gobsmacking. Ultimately though it never got a fair innings.
The PlayStation and PS2 definately reached their max late on in their respective lifecycles. PS stuff like MDK, Ridge Racer 4, Soul Edge, Night Raid and Disruptor were very impressive technically. As for the PS2 despite it's reputation as being awkward to develop for gave us some technically astounding stuff. God Of War, Burnout, VF4, Killzone, Black etc. Probably better utilised than any console ever.
The DC didn't stay with us for too long so never really had a chance to be maxed out. Shenmue was mighty impressive but probably more down to the huge budget for art than anything else.
People have suggested that the Xbox never fulfilled it's potential but I would disagree. As impressive as Halo and DOA were games like Halo 2, Riddick and Strangers Wrath used graphics techniques that were only to become common with the advent of the 360.

I think it really comes down to the installed base a system has. If there is a market for it developers can spend a bit more time learning to use a systems resources properly. And repeated exposure to a system with a long lifespan will yield a lot of experience as well.
This generation has seen an increase in the use of middleware so I cannot imagine we will ever see the 360 and PS3 pushed to their respective limits.

[Flabio]

It's a mistake to think that middleware is somehow not pushing the machine. Middleware devs don't just say 'ok, that works, lets just leave it at that until the next console comes along'.

We regularly get new revisions of the middleware we use, the people working on them are just as keen to get better performance as those doing the actual gamedev are.

[samanosuke]

It's a mistake to think that middleware is somehow not pushing the machine. Middleware devs don't just say 'ok, that works, lets just leave it at that until the next console comes along'.

We regularly get new revisions of the middleware we use, the people working on them are just as keen to get better performance as those doing the actual gamedev are.

Ummm, what's that got to do with the price of beans? Even in the last generation of consoles middleware was the exception rather than the rule.

[anephric]

Renderware disagrees with you. Do not disagree with Renderware.

[Flabio]

Ummm, what's that got to do with the price of beans?

It was a response to the point above mine which basically said 'cause modern games use middleware more, we'll never see the current gen consoles hit their peak'.

Which is wrong. For the reasons I stated.

[HC_O]

anephric
Your avatar, Snake = Win!

I have to watch Escape from New York again, havn't seen it since the late eighties...

[Leon Retro]

That's being a bit silly , and like saying if one put a 68000 inside a Master System , or more so a PC -Eng it would kill the SNES . There were a lot of console and computers that used the 68000 chip , not least the Amiga , that couldn't handle some of the MD stuff could , Other factors like GPU and Memory ECT come into play .

I'm not being silly. I'm confident that a SNES with a 68000 would have been amazing. 256 colours, all the Mode effects, the great sound chip, and a 68000 that has enough power for impressive 2D. Sound like a recipe for a dream machine. Seeing that Sega could afford the 68000 - and that it was a standard chip for arcade devs, I think Nintendo were nuts not to go down that route.
At least skilled devs managed to overcome the weak cpu and produce classics such as Actraiser, ContraIII, CastlevaniaIV, Sparkster etc...

The MD saving grace was it's powerful CPU. The SNES had generally superior custom graphics hardware that the MD couldn't match. But in all fairness the MD had a lot of CPU power to use for stuff like SFX as games like Gunstar Heroes, Red Zone, Ranger X, Corporation, TFIV and Toy Story all showed.

I agree. Sega had been using the 68000 for years - they knew how good it was. It was the best chip of the 80s for performance to price. The chip was the reason why the MD could throw around sprites easily. If the SNES had featured the same cpu - it would have been a far better machine. Final Fight would have been arcade perfect etc... The boost in performance would have been very significant.

I don't know why Nintendo went with a weak cpu. I heard they chose it as a way to be backwards compatible with the NES( an idea they eventually knocked on the head ) .. Maybe it was simply cheaper? ...

anephric
Your avatar, Snake = Win!

I have to watch Escape from New York again, havn't seen it since the late eighties...

Such an excellent film. I have it on dvd, but will definitely be buying it again on blu-ray. Someone needs to make a game based on it. With 80s synth music.

[samanosuke]

It was a response to the point above mine which basically said 'cause modern games use middleware more, we'll never see the current gen consoles hit their peak'.

Which is wrong. For the reasons I stated.

I apologise then. I can't usually be arsed to read such huge blocks of text.

I'm not being silly. I'm confident that a SNES with a 68000 would have been amazing. 256 colours, all the Mode effects, the great sound chip, and a 68000 that has enough power for impressive 2D. Sound like a recipe for a dream machine. Seeing that Sega could afford the 68000 - and that it was a standard chip for arcade devs, I think Nintendo were nuts not to go down that route.

Why not go the whole hog and have 4096 on-screen colours, even more mode effects, loads of PCM and FM sound channels with a co-pro to take some load off the CPU and an overclocked 68000 that has even more power for impressive 2D? Oh yes, that's right, there was a machine like that called the Neo Geo and it cost a bomb.

I think there's a simple reason why Nintendo didn't use a 68000: it would've undoubtedly pushed the price of the machine up. Even if it pushed the price up by only £20-£30 it would have made the already cheaper Megadrive even better value and Nintendo would have had trouble competing, at least until the price of 68000s reduced significantly by which time it might've been to late anyway.

[Team Andromeda]

I'm not being silly. I'm confident that a SNES with a 68000 would have been amazing. 256 colours, all the Mode effects, the great sound chip, and a 68000 that has enough power for impressive 2D. Sound like a recipe for a dream machine. Seeing that Sega could afford the 68000 - and that it was a standard chip for arcade devs, I think Nintendo were nuts not to go down that route.
At least skilled devs managed to overcome the weak cpu and produce classics such as Actraiser, ContraIII, CastlevaniaIV, Sparkster etc...

That's just like saying a Mega Drive with the Snes GPU , would have killed most machines . Like I said they were plenty of other machines that used the 68000 chip . I never saw many Amiga or Amiga 1200 games scroll like Sonic II , for example .
At the end of the day , we can only go on , with what the machines shipped with .
And to me the Mega Drive was pushed far harder than a lot of other consoles , some of its latter games , were amazing demo's of the hardware and the programmer skills