The Marvel Cinematic Multiverse

[Neon Ignition]

Watched the finale now. It was really, really snappily handled and great fun to watch which is definitely the main takeaway for it. It's certainly critical for the show that that is the case, the pay off of those moments is pretty much what counter balances the black hole vacuum they create that sucks up all the world building and stakes that they work to build. I'd be happy to see a season two but as the 'gimmick' here is contextless I wouldn't want to see the character appear in a film, it just wouldn't mesh well at all compared to Deadpool where it is handled better.

[Brad]

Can't see a second season of she hulk working. This should end here. Was fun at times, dull at others and the finale made me forgive all the bad bits but they've done that now; there's nowhere for this to go.

[Neon Ignition]

It sounds like a couple of them are going to get additional runs. Given the original talk about how many were going to be one shots they seem to be wanting to maintain their hits, not sure Moon Knight will work out either as it barely held together in the first run. Mostly curious about Echo, Hawkeye didn't sell that character at all.

[Brad]

Moon Knight was gash now I think about it.

[Asura]

Moon Knight was gash now I think about it.

Just realised this totally passed me by.

[Brad]

Don’t waste your time mate!

[Dogg Thang]

I just watched the end of She-Hulk and totally loved it. A very funny ending that really came together nicely. I enjoyed the whole run. A very easy light watch.

[Neon Ignition]

Harrison Ford Is Marvel's New General Ross - Dark Horizons
Report that Harrison Ford has now officially signed on to take over the role of General Ross from the late William Hurt and will appear in Captain America: New World Order and The Thunderbolts

[Neon Ignition]

I know I'm diving down the obvious nerd-hole that some will make the also obvious 'not worth thinking about' counter point too but as the days have gone by I've continued to read the online back and forth about She-Hulk's finale and how it ties in with the comics and it really does present more questions than it provides clarity

In the comics, from what I can tell, She-Hulk breaks the fourth wall all the time since it was introduced to bring her comics something more distinct from the Hulk ones. In the comics they are supposedly almost like a sideline, when she appears in other branded titles she doesn't do fourth wall breaking. This is presumably what will happen with the character in the MCU, if she appears in a film or another characters series she will be a straight forward character incapable of fourth wall breaking which makes sense as it would be hugely disruptive to the experience for audiences who haven't seen the series and brings in obvious narrative issues that they won't want introduced for the wider universe.

So, you then have the 4th wall breaking contained to the series itself. Before the finale there are several ways you can go about contextualising the wall breaking either directly in-canon or simply as a flourish of the series. Personally, I'd prefer in-canon mostly because the MCU has made a point to date of doing so such as the animated elements in Ms Marvel but either way works.

The finale packs a punch because the delivery of the moment is bolder than in the episodes beforehand and also executed so well. But, on reflection once that novelty of the impact fades, I'm finding myself increasingly in the camp of retrospectively finding it falls apart pretty quickly too. Jen isn't just self-aware of the audience, she also questions events as they unfold and yet is prescient of characters and such before they happen, she's against the narrative of incel types leading her to a typical MCU finale but seemingly fine with being catfished into bed by them when she can step out and have her story altered at any moment too. It's not even covering all the usual that 'ability' affects in the arc, events that Jen just seems to now idly sit by and allow happen because she's either passive to them or because she's only concerned with how they affect her story. Also, how is Jen - given the nature of the character we come to know - not deeply affected by the knowledge she's fictional and her life is at the mercy of said writers, let alone K.E.V.I.N (a joke where if you get the reference it's easy to work out why the joke doesn't work). She's perhaps one of the characters who would most be troubled by that knowledge given her drive to be a self-determined figure not defined by others. The ending doesn't really achieve that, she mostly argues to skip a fight and events resume the morning after with the arrests. Given the severity of the event taking place in the barn it feels like the joke handwaves away the moment the show was aiming to tackle the serious subject the most.

Deadpool side-steps this issue because it's written into the narrative that there is a contextual conceit to his wall breaking. He's damaged and talking to thin air in-universe, it's a part of the psychological make up of the character that other characters are aware of but don't experience and we as the audience are in on the joke that we're actually here being addressed by him. Even though not yet formally within the MCU he's none the less bound by the elements around him so the stakes remain in place. You can certainly go way wilder with him and the fourth wall breaking stuff but its judged media by media which is why in film everything can still be framed as how he perceives things. Jen hasn't got that but goes so much further and you circle either undermining the MCU's entire world building or Jen herself which is a shame as so much work is done in the show to make her come across better than most of the characters introduced this phase.

I think that's why it circles being a show that doesn't feel like a second season is a safe bet to do. The moment has landed and worked but now that that shot has been fired I feel like without absolutely on point writing the risk of unpicking what was broadly a fun, enjoyable and successful run. The final makes the show feel like Marvel making a fun parody of their own content. If anything the show would probably work better if it were non-canon as freed from trying to square the peg through the round hole of the rest of the MCU it would likely be unshackled to do much more.

So, yep, I know things inevitably circle around to the 'don't take it seriously' argument but I think the counter back to that would be that after 14 years and over 40 films etc the investment in canon of the MCU is one of the critical elements of its success and why audiences still care like they do compared to pretty much any other franchise. Recent output like Werewolf by Night, WandaVision, Multi-verse of Madness and No Way Home have also shown how Marvel is perfectly capable of bringing in varied styles, concepts and approaches without creating these kinds of issues also. If faced with the thought of not thinking about it, just run with it and ignore it then it kind of highlights how flimsy a gimmick it is to lean on if making more of the show. I guess we'll see how Disney proceeds with it from here, but that remaining sense that the show is something of a tongue in cheek poke in the sides of the MCU... I dunno, it takes more away from it than adds as time passes with me. In the moment it was great, later on I'm less enamoured.

[Dogg Thang]

I'm not seeing why Deadpool gets a 4th wall pass and She-Hulk doesn't but I'm definitely coming down on the side of: you're thinking way too much about what is just a piece of light-hearted entertainment. The idea that there is 'risk' in a second season says you're giving it far too much importance. It's a TV show.

[Neon Ignition]

It's because in Deadpool he's breaking the fourth wall but not the rules established from the worldbuilding. In the same way you could pick any franchise and release a new installment with the same tricks but very easily it would tarnish the experience in most instances. As a piece of meta light entertainment it works great but at the same time it feels like it undermines the point the show was trying to make and also its character development.

[Dogg Thang]

She-Hulk broke the 4th wall in episode 1, establishing the rules of the show. Not breaking them. And I can't see how it undermines anything the show was setting out to achieve. It was crucial to the ending it gave us.

[Neon Ignition]

It broke the 4th wall out of the gate but talking to the viewer is very different than stepping out of the episode itself, walking through to the writers room itself and using that whole new dynamic to arguably not give us an ending.

It's a bit like if Teen Titans Go was supposed to be canon with the DCU. It doesn't stop TTG from being great at what it is but it just doesn't fit.

Hell, I'm not sold on Lower Decks being connected with the other Star Treks

[Dogg Thang]

Yeah, I feel like you're overthinking the show. It was very apparent that it was a show that knew it was a show. The last episode didn't change that. It's incredibly light entertainment and little more. As that, I found it to be incredibly successful.

[Brad]

The fourth wall break in she hulk is better than dead pool, and everything else because it didn’t just break the fourth wall, it broke the rules of the fourth wall as well. It was very fresh and as dog says, they set this up in episode 1 and the execution was masterful.