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[John Beaulieu]

I picked one which isn't loaded with carbs, and by cutting down on my usual carb intake I think it won't be too bad .... you can buy those weight gain protein shakes which are packed with carbs, which will put weight on.

tbh when I was training to put weight on I was hammering two-three shakes a day - this time though I am looking to lose weight which is why I will only take a protein drink after a session to speed up my recovery time

[ItsThere]

Cool, Fitness first always seem to have offers on them so will look at picking one of them up. Don't want to get larded up before Summer hols!
Cheers fo the advice

[marcus]

I used to drink "Nurishment" before and after a gym session, I dont know if they even do that now, not seen it for ages.

[rumbletum]

I used to drink "Nurishment" before and after a gym session, I dont know if they even do that now, not seen it for ages.

Yeah, its still about - not the ideal drink though, very high in sugar.

[marcus]

Aye dont touch any of that stuff anymore.

[Matt]

IMMEDIATELY after your workout, you should consume at least 30-40g of protein and 50g of simple carbs. The carbs are needed to replenish glycogen in the muscle, which are starved after strenuous exercise. The muscles will lap them up, and once replenished repair can begin. Plus I believe it helps to keep cortisol levels down, which have a negative effect on testoserone levels which you want to keep as high as you can [naturally, of course].

What is ideal after a workout is a pint of semi-skimmed milk, a good scoop and a half of whey protein (about 38g of whey powder = 30g protein more or less) and a scoop (25g) of maltrodexin. Maltrodexin is a form dextrose which will boost glycogen. It's a simple carb with a low GI, like the sugar in milk. So that shake should get you 40g protein and 50g simple carbs. The whey will be absorbed in 20 mins which is ideal, and you'll get a bit of casein protein from the milk which takes much longer to digest so you've got a constant flow of amino acids.

Now if you want to really pack on the muscle, you'll want more carbs immediately after your workout. Now please note this is for intense training, not just going to a gym and lifting - you're busting your arse here. These figures are relative as well, some people will have luck some may want to take a little less. It's based on how many reps you do.

12-72 reps per workout: 0.6 g of simply carbs per Kg of Lean Body Mass
73-200 reps per workout: 0.8 g/kg/LBM
200-360 reps per workout: 1.0 g/kg/LBM
360-450 reps per workout: 1.2 g/kg/LBM

Throw in 0.33g of Glutamine per kg of bodyweight as well and you'll have one great shake! It will be very expensive though!

If you want to lose weight, drop the carbs listed above a little. However, carbs are not your enemy and just after a workout, you really need them, and the simple carbs can give you a natural insulin spike which further enhances growth.

So at the very least, stick with 50g of carbs and 40g protein in a shake immediately, then an hour later have a solid meal.

[Matt]

Yeah, its still about - not the ideal drink though, very high in sugar.

You want to avoid sugars normally, but not when you're at the gym. In fact, a little energy before you train can work wonders.

Something to add to what I've written above, you could try having the shake in the last part of your workout, say 10 mins from the end. Start drinking it then, not all at once, and it'll get to work quicker.

Likewise, some people have very good results taking some Branched Chain Amino Acids during their workout. Take them in liquid form.

[rumbletum]

You want to avoid sugars normally, but not when you're at the gym. In fact, a little energy before you train can work wonders.

A little energy will help, but a 400kcal+ drink isn't the way to do it unless you're bulking

[Matt]

400cals - it's 100g of sugar?? ****.

Well avoid that may be best, but do consider the carbs you need after the workout.

[rumbletum]

No, I just checked, not 100g, there's 60g of sugar, 21g Protein, 12g Fat (inc 7g saturated fat) for a total of 428kcal

Like you say, getting carbs in after a workout is a good idea, there's just better options than Nurishment drinks, and to be fair, there's worse things out there too (like the chap I saw in my gyms changing room eating 2 doughnuts after his workout) - I personally wouldn't recommend having them as a regular thing.

[ItsThere]

Chain that is some INTENSE information are you seriously into teh training? It really all is about what you eat isn't it? Are these figures in addition to 3 square meals a day would be my only question.

[Matt]

3 square meals a day isn't enough

6 meals a day, plus one after your workout. Keeps your metabolism high, which burns off fat, and also keeps you in an anabolic state which is essential for muscle growth.

As you say, it really is about what you eat. I'd say it's more important than the actual weight lifting. After all, how can you grow if you don't have the fuel your body needs?

Without going in to lots of depth, calorie and macro-nutrient counting, the easiest way to add muscle, and lose fat, is to eat 6 meals a day. That's a meal every 2.5 to 3 hours.

What I'd suggest, for an average person, would be a meal replacement shake between regular meals. So breakfast, shake, lunch, shake, dinner, shake. Shakes are really the easiest and most practical way to get those meals in you.

What I've had great success doing is using a good quality shake mix like Chemical Nutrition Pro-Mass. Some meal replacement stuff is made from simple sugars, some maltrodexin which I'd prefer not to have throughout the day. CNP stuff is real quality.

Here's some very basic sums, depending on what you're aiming for. Remember you can't really gain muscle and lose fat at the same time.

Mass building:
1.5 to 2g protein per lb of bodyweight
2 to 3g carbs per lb of bodyweight

Fat Loss:
1.2 to 1.5g protein per lb of bodyweight
0.8 to 1.5g carbs per lb of bodyweight

Don't worry about fat, if you eat healthy you shouldn't be getting in too much bad fat. Have some essential fatty acids (EFA's) each day like omega 3 and 6, and a few almonds before bad can actually help shift fat, in my experience (up to 50g if mass building, if losing weight 10g to 20g).

So with those rough figures, split it up in to 6 meals, or even better 7 on workout days (remember post-workout shake will be 40g protein, 50g carbs or more if bulking).

If I'm bulking, the "shake meal" will have say 4 scoops (100g) of Pro-Mass with water (I don't get on with milk so usually avoid it, so that gives me something like 35g protein and 55g carbs). If I'm dieting, I'll take 2 scoops of Pro-Mass with 1 scoop of protein, which gives me 25g carbs and 35g protein. No-one is sure how much protein the body can digest per meal, but 35g seems the most commonly quoted. Just don't go with more than 50g as I really don't think you'd get the most out of that, unless it was Cassein (see below).

The reason the figures for daily carb and protein intake above are quite broad is because it really does depend on the individual. If bulking, I really don't think a natural bodybuilder can take 3g per pound of bodyweight without getting fat. However, the protein should be at least 1.5g regardless. If you start on 2g/lb for carbs, give it a week or two, then work up or down accordingly. If you're gaining too much fat (you'll likely gain a little at least) reduce a fraction, but only by maybe 20g / day until you find your ideal amount. Likewise you may have to increase if you have a naturally high metabolism and / or a very active job, like a builder.

Dieting can be more haphazard, at least at first. If natural, I think you'll have to drop carbs quite a lot. I'm currently weighing around 200lbs, and as I'm dieting a little I'm aiming for 300g protein a day, and no less than 160g carbs. However, I'll fluctuate the carbs each day, so it may be 200g one day, 160g the next. Listen to your body, and see what differences slight increases in carbs make. And once a week, bump those carbs up to 350g to 400g to "reset" your metabolism, possibly dropping protein down to 200g that day. IF you're constantly making small changes, your body doesn't become accustomed to the calorie intake so your metabolism keeps working hard.

That's for MY weight, you can work it out accordingly.

Consider adding 5g of fiber (try psyllium husks) to two shakes during your day, it helps make you feel fuller and helps, how do you say, any digestion problems that much protein can cause.

Get a good multi-vitamin, preferably immediately AFTER your workout, when your body can absorb everything a lot better. And throw some creatine in as well, it's the best legal supplement.

One last thing in this incredibly unorganised post - make your breakfast big, regardless of bulking or dieting. Consider have 1/4 to 1/3 of your daily carbs in that breakfast, ideally through oats which has a low GI index so absorbs slowly. And if dieting, limit your carbs before you go to bed - maybe just have a protein shake with 10g of complex carbs. If bulking, just have a ProMass shake with lots of carbs Oh, and try and get a protein with Micellar Cassein in it as well, this absorbs slowly so provides a nice flow of amino-acids. Whey is perfect immediately after the gym though, and first thing in the morning, as it absorbs within 20 minutes.

Er, as you can tell I'm kind of in to this. Diet is just so important, and I honestly believe very few people take it seriously enough to get the most out of their training. It's annoying people bust their arse in the gym, then don't consider the food and the consequences. And even many "gym experts" don't know what the **** they're talking about. Check out www.bodybuilding.com it's a positive goldmine, though like anything there are a lot of opinions and they'll probably contradict each other, and everything I've written However, the basics are same - at LEAST 1g protein / pound of body weight, and I think it should be 1.5g for growth.

You don't have to get in to the science of it, just eat lots of healthy protein (chicken, tuna, beef, cottage cheese) and you'll get a lot more out of your training. Protein shakes are purely a nice, simple way to increase your protein without spending all day cooking chicken.

And it's a lot cheaper as well

Never skip a meal, you'll enter a catabolic state where your body will eat the muscle for fuel rather than fat. That's BAD!!

[ItsThere]

What can I say?! Thank you for that monster post, it is the most helpful thing anyone has ever said including all the 'experts' at my gym!

That really is a lot of food but if the low carb shakes do their job I guess it seems a logical way to run a diet. At the moment I am proper skint and proper busy, end of year on a masters course which means I have no money and no time to train properly. Ideally I would like to begin again when I get some cash, which will be in a couple of weeks time, and I will take your advice in good stead.

The other thing that I was told is that you need a lot of sleep to allow muscles to regenerate after being torn. I'm sure this is true, BUT I am relsihing my last few months as a student before I start my long ass job in the city so drink way way too much. It never affects my weight but it does affect the quality of sleep I get. I think this also stops any progress I might be making otherwise. It seems as if true dedication is required to getting a decent physique.

So the inevitable question arises.... How much are you lifting? etc etc, judging by the length and depth of your post I guess you won't mind going into it

[Matt]

Sleep is very important. That's when you grow - not in the gym. 8 hours a night or more really.

And this diet isn't that expensive. My gym sells really good quality tubs of protein blend, 5lb costs ?32 and that's about 60 servings - so 50p per serving, add 25p for milk and you've got a pretty cheap meal!

With regards to my own "strength", I'm afraid I lack the genes to really get far [genes are the single most important thing, and alas the one thing you can't do anything about]. I recently set a PB by benching 100kg, not much for some I'm sure but getting two plates up was a huge achievement for me. And in 3 months I've put an inch on my arms, now just over 15". I've been training since April last year, and done a lot of good and bad things in that time. Most of the time, you listen to advice, try techniques, and then finally stumble on what works for you - only to have to change in 2 months down the line when it stops working anyway!

I'm by no means a monster, but I'm pleased with my progress. I recently went on a bulking phase, in which I learned a lot. I learned that for me, 2-3g carbs/lb of body weight it just too much. I put on 5kg of muscle in about a month, which is an incredible amount, especially naturally. However I put on the same in fat So now I'm trying to drop the fat and keep the muscle, and so far I've been pretty successful (lost 3kg fat and 0.3kg muscle in 3 weeks). Still got a long way to go though.

[nightstalker100]

Sleep is very important. That's when you grow - not in the gym. 8 hours a night or more really.

And this diet isn't that expensive. My gym sells really good quality tubs of protein blend, 5lb costs ?32 and that's about 60 servings - so 50p per serving, add 25p for milk and you've got a pretty cheap meal!

With regards to my own "strength", I'm afraid I lack the genes to really get far [genes are the single most important thing, and alas the one thing you can't do anything about]. I recently set a PB by benching 100kg, not much for some I'm sure but getting two plates up was a huge achievement for me. And in 3 months I've put an inch on my arms, now just over 15". I've been training since April last year, and done a lot of good and bad things in that time. Most of the time, you listen to advice, try techniques, and then finally stumble on what works for you - only to have to change in 2 months down the line when it stops working anyway!

I'm by no means a monster, but I'm pleased with my progress. I recently went on a bulking phase, in which I learned a lot. I learned that for me, 2-3g carbs/lb of body weight it just too much. I put on 5kg of muscle in about a month, which is an incredible amount, especially naturally. However I put on the same in fat So now I'm trying to drop the fat and keep the muscle, and so far I've been pretty successful (lost 3kg fat and 0.3kg muscle in 3 weeks). Still got a long way to go though.

Avoid CNP products like the plague. Over priced, over hyped rubbish that only manages to sell since its endorsed by former 6 time mr olympia dorian yates. Rumour has it, certain products are contaminated by compounds that will put muscle on but are illegal at the same time (steroids!)

Shop around for protein powders; theres very little between most to be honest. Some might not agree with you and have you running to the loo others may sit just fine. Experiment. Find one an then buy it in bulk to save cash. They last for months.

Often whats more important to consider when bulking is getting enough protein not the actual type of protein so dont be fooled by the bull**** advertising gimmick used by companies that say their products will put on 66% more mass quicker or some rubbish like that.

The average price i'll pay for 5lbs is ?25 so you that as your guide.

Don't ever buy at rrp which for most products is a staggering ?39.99!!

Carbs are important - they are "muscle sparing" in that theyre used by the body to burn for energy as opposed to muscle and you'll find that when having a lots of carbs in your system, your body does an excellant job of culling nitrogen from the protein you consume.

But you'll have to experiment to find out how much is too much, which types of carbs your body responds to better etc. After 7 years i'm still half clueless! So be patient.