Osama Bin Laden killed

[Charlie]

Hmmm... that depends on what is actually written in those texts. When you get down to it, there are more than a few scary passages here and there that give that minority more than enough fuel and validation.

Are you talking about the Qur'an or another holy book in particular? If you do mean the Qur'an, I've not read it, but my (Muslim) friend insists the original texts do not preach hatred of any kind, that certain passages have been deliberately misinterpreted and twisted by a minority to suit their own twisted ideas of what Islam is. You might argue, my friend being a Muslim, that she would say that, that she's simply protecting the image of her faith, and, of course, to gain a genuinely satisfactory answer we would have to read the book ourselves but, until that time, I'm inclined to accept her word.

[Kungfu]

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world:
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.

- George Bernard Shaw

This quote is very powerful to me and in my opinion ties into the way our world has changed with the War On Terrorism.

To the continued discussion of religion in this thread below is a quote which I do not use to criticise organised religion but ask to those who follow why are the written texts so important?

"The ultimate Truth is beyond words. Doctrines are words. They're not the Way. The Way is wordless. Words are Illusions."

Bodhidharma

[Charlie]

Wise quotes indeed.

The second quote sounds almost identical to something the sage Lao Tzu teaches in the Tao Te Ching.

[Dogg Thang]

Are you talking about the Qur'an or another holy book in particular?

I haven't read the Qur'an but I have read the Bible and there were quite a few passages in that that I felt were bang out of order in this day and age, albeit mostly Old Testament. Reading the Qur'an is on my 'to do' list. Whether I ever get to it or not, I don't know but I have seen many passages quoted that, again, I felt weren't exactly in the best interests of a peaceful existence and have checked those passages and they're there. I wouldn't know the passages from either book off the top of my head so I'd be relying on Google to dig some up. The first result I find brings me to this - http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html and this - http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/qu...elty/long.html though I don't know that site and certainly can't vouch for it. From the looks of it, they're writing their own interpretations to make a point but where it might help, rather than relying on their interpretation, is to point to passages you can check out in the books themselves. And always worth checking what's before and after them for context. They also have to be balanced by all the other messages in the books too but some passages simply are what they are.

There are some like Qur?an 8:12 (only picking that one as it was one that I recognised when I saw it again) that I find it hard to see in any other way as violent, and I've looked for other interpretations. In fact, there is one interpretation here (http://www.theamericanmuslim.org/tam...s/a_new_quran/) that ends with this: "anyone can misquote, mistranslate, or quote out of context a verse of scripture to seemingly prove a point. This has been done with the Biblical text for centuries to justify such things as slavery and racism. Muslim terrorists do the exact same thing with the Qur?an to justify their heinous acts of murder. But just because they do so, it does not mean the Qur?an is therefore violent." Which is an absolutely fair point about both books and yet I'm still not quite seeing the explanation as mellowing the words in any way but read and make up your own mind.

[Charlie]

Mmm, I can't deny the quotes in those links don't exactly preach peace. Whether, as you say, it's because they've been isolated and therefore taken out of context, I don't know, but they ain't pretty reading.

[dataDave]

Words are man-made, although numbers and music aren't.

[NekoFever]

Mmm, I can't deny the quotes in those links don't exactly preach peace. Whether, as you say, it's because they've been isolated and therefore taken out of context, I don't know, but they ain't pretty reading.

In fairness, you can find plenty of unkind things about non-believers in the Bible as well. In any religion it's the idiots who act on that stuff that are the problem.

[toythatkills]

I keep reading the title of this thread as "Official Bin Laden thread"

[Charlie]

In fairness, you can find plenty of unkind things about non-believers in the Bible as well. In any religion it's the idiots who act on that stuff that are the problem.

The links made reference to both Biblical and Isamic quotes but, yeah, how people choose to act on them is the problem.

Words are man-made, although numbers and music aren't.

It does seem as if the universe itself runs on mathematics. Music's an interesting one. I don't know whether it's manmade or not as I can't decide if things outside man, like birdsong for instance, are music. There's another train of thought which says music is mathematics. I like to believe music exists outside mankind but, if I'm honest, that's based more on a romantic notion rather than science or reason.

[koopatroopa90]

I keep reading the title of this thread as "Official Bin Laden thread"

Since it was first created I've read it as "Osama Bin Killed".

[Ady]

I haven't read the Qur'an but I have read the Bible and there were quite a few passages in that that I felt were bang out of order in this day and age, albeit mostly Old Testament... I wouldn't know the passages from either book off the top of my head so I'd be relying on Google to dig some up. The first result I find brings me to this - http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html and this - http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/qu...elty/long.html though I don't know that site and certainly can't vouch for it. From the looks of it, they're writing their own interpretations to make a point but where it might help, rather than relying on their interpretation, is to point to passages you can check out in the books themselves. And always worth checking what's before and after them for context. They also have to be balanced by all the other messages in the books too but some passages simply are what they are.

Ah yes, SAB is a useful site for detailing contradictions and problems in the so-called "inerrant word of god".

The context card is usually played by religious apologists whenever problematic verses are pointed out. Either that, or the verse which clearly says one thing is somehow twisted to mean something else entirely. With regard to SAB though, the site does contain the entire bible, so you can look at a particular quote (e.g. the quote from 2Kings I linked to overpage) and also read the text before and after to get an idea of context.

A good video on the subject:

[dataDave]

It does seem as if the universe itself runs on mathematics. Music's an interesting one. I don't know whether it's manmade or not as I can't decide if things outside man, like birdsong for instance, are music. There's another train of thought which says music is mathematics. I like to believe music exists outside mankind but, if I'm honest, that's based more on a romantic notion rather than science or reason.

Of course songs are man-made, however I was always under the impression that sounds creating form throughout nature was common knowledge.

Mixing music with words though can sometimes ruin the music, which is why I prefer instrumentals and have never been a big fan of Hip Hop.

[Yakumo]

Hip hop is ****e IMO. Never liked it, never will.

[dataDave]

I wouldn't say it's ****e, I can see how some of it is Godly, it's just that I don't like music with direct messaging, or most music with lyrics of any kind.

[Howiee]

Ah yes, SAB is a useful site for detailing contradictions and problems in the so-called "inerrant word of god".

The context card is usually played by religious apologists whenever problematic verses are pointed out. Either that, or the verse which clearly says one thing is somehow twisted to mean something else entirely. With regard to SAB though, the site does contain the entire bible, so you can look at a particular quote (e.g. the quote from 2Kings I linked to overpage) and also read the text before and after to get an idea of context.

A good video on the subject:

Ah yes, there's nothing quite as refined as an argument that uses cartoon stick men.

The truth is, Ady, it doesn't matter what explanation is given. Your a priori assumption that the bible is not true, means that you haven't the slightest interest in properly finding out whether or not it might be true.