Osama Bin Laden killed

[toythatkills]

My bad. But my post made mention to more than merely the number of innocents killed by each side. Both sides are looking to force their principles on others, be it the belief the world should be run under Shia law or run under capitalist philosophies. Both sides have their own self interests in mind and kill to protect those interests, be it making money or living in accordance with certain scriptures. It's all nonsense, all about power and control.

But it's not about power and control. America isn't trying to build an empire, they're trying to give these countries the chance to govern themselves democratically and independently. If you want to say that they should be forced to live under a dictatorship until such a time as they can overthrow it themselves (which will likely be never, since that's the point of a dictatorship) then you're not really being fair, are you?

[dataDave]

Ermmm.. did I miss anything?

[dataDave]

Democracy is still a dictatorship though. The only way it can work is how I stated in the other voting thread.

No matter who is in power we still have to put up with the same old crap, and people always complain.

[Charlie]

I have never done any of these things actually. Unless 'we' are considered to be automatically complicit with any actions taken by the government? (and the government of a foreign country at that...)

I know, but in a way we all have to shoulder some of the blame. We all pay our taxes and those taxes get turned into weapons of war. The only people with clean hands are those hermits who live in caves or wherever who are 100% seperate from society. I'm thinking of becoming like that myself.

[Neon Ignition]

There's no doubt a strong sense from any political or military force of self interest in actions they take but I also don't subscribe that it's their sole and primary aim. I kinda find the idea that any Government body is effectively an evil self interested and always lying entity to be just as niaive as ny other skewed view. As much good as it's done in some areas, sites like Wikileaks also have a negative effect with people oddly all to willing to buy everything they present us with.

[Charlie]

But it's not about power and control. America isn't trying to build an empire, they're trying to give these countries the chance to govern themselves democratically and independently. If you want to say that they should be forced to live under a dictatorship until such a time as they can overthrow it themselves (which will likely be never, since that's the point of a dictatorship) then you're not really being fair, are you?

Not trying to build an empire? I think they're trying to protect their existing empire and expand it. As for dictatorships, our leaders in the west support dictatorships, both with financial and military aid. Look at Saddam and Gaddafi...

[Dogg Thang]

Now, now, the Finnish goverment hasn't actually started a war since the early 40's.

Gah! Sorry, I should have checked your location. Being a non-UK person here, I always think everyone else is in the UK. My apologies.

The thing is, no matter how cold I may seem by saying this, war helps to keep the human population numbers under control.

Well that's alright then. Let's bring on the cull. The bloodier the better.


And, Toythatkills, the US has put many dictators where they are, has happily left alone or supported other countries with dictators and, since WW2, their military actions haven't really seemed to have done much to make the world more democratic.

[dataDave]

I didn't see WW2 or the holocaust first-hand either. Does that mean they didn't actually happen?

Of course it all happened, exactly how it went about though is anyone's guess. I personally don't trust any post-war source because I didn't see anything first-hand.

You have to think about how history would have been written had Hitler won the war instead of the Allies. Maybe he'd have blamed the holocaust on the Polish and we wouldn't know any different, and anyone that says otherwise is defined as a conspiracy theorist and laughed at (or executed/bummed).

[toythatkills]

Not trying to build an empire? I think they're trying to protect their existing empire and expand it. As for dictatorships, our leaders in the west support dictatorships, both with financial and military aid. Look at Saddam and Gaddafi...

A quick mention of oil and then I think you've covered everything. This isn't going to work.

[dataDave]

The thing is, no matter how cold I may seem by saying this, war helps to keep the human population numbers under control. The world is over populated as it is - imagine the billions of extra people had the 1st and 2nd world wars not occured. On the flip side war also helps develop new technology, particularly in the medical industry (thus saving lives/increasing pop levels through other means). I studied the history of medicine at GCSE and loads of major breakthroughs directly came about because of war.

The sad thing is there are more than enough resources on the planet and more than enough space to keep around 50 billion people sustained. The problem is that 3% of the population control 90% of the wealth, or whatever the formula is... the number keeps tipping because as we already know money makes more money.

New tech can come around without war, it's just that the economy promotes the drip-feeding of innovation and development. You don't get rich by releasing a 256-bit console in the early 90's for $149.99. I think we're around 100 years behind on tech because of the economy.

[dataDave]

I have the perfect solution:

[Dogg Thang]

You know what we need to take our minds off all this? A big wedding.

[koopatroopa90]

Well that's alright then. Let's bring on the cull. The bloodier the better.

I am pleased you understand.

[dataDave]

Seriously though, announcing his 'death' is probably the worst thing to do for 'security'. Surely the best thing to do would be to keep it hush hush?

[Number45]

We're no better than the 'terrorists' we fight against, we claim we're on the 'good' side and come up with bull**** excuses and explanations why we have to kill people to achieve our goals, just like they come up with bull**** excuses to justify what they're doing.

Without wanting to defend all of our actions, you don't think the goals themselves have any bearing on this? You don't think one goal is more 'right' than another? In some cases I'm afraid, the end justifies the means as far as I'm concerned.