Osama Bin Laden killed

[MartyG]

Clearly the US Pentagon doesn't have the photoshop skillz.

['Press Start']

What's going on at the moment confirms my age old suspicions - the US ADORES the conspiracy theorists. It is throwing them gems right now. The initial briefing said that Bin Laden used his wife as a shield and she was killed. Now the very same people say that he didn't and she's alive. Initial briefing said he was killed in a firefight. Now, he's unarmed.

Conspiracy theories are wonderful. Because each one muddies the truth further. The more whacked-out the conspiracy theories the better because that just allows holes to be picked in each one, leading to doubts and more doubts. Within just a couple of days here, and even before the conspiracy theorists get going, it's already getting muddy enough that the truth just can't be taken for granted. And, when that happens, and especially when the conspiracy theories take hold (and they're being given more than enough material), the truth can be in plain sight and yet impossible to distinguish from the bull****.

Deliberate misinformation, vagueries (is that word?) and contradictions.

So true. Even if conspiracy theorists get the whole truth and shout it from the roof tops there is doubt because they are conspiracy theorists! It's a genius design.

The best place to hide the truth is within multiple lies.

[egparadigm]

I'm not sure what photos can really establish anyway. They could easily be altered.

If Obama says so then that's enough for me. Logically, it would be crazy to claim he is dead if he weren't, since he'd soon pop up with a new audio recording or video.

I suppose they could release the DNA results, but that could be faked also, I guess. And you'd end up with some crazy German surgeon making clones in the manner of The Boys From Brazil.

[MartyG]

If Obama says so then that's enough for me.

Is that because world leaders have always been honest about this stuff? I'm not one to believe in conspiracy theories and I don't think Bin Laden wore a halo, but ...

Initially he was armed and using a human shield. Then he wasn't.

Obama and the crew watched it happen live. Then they didn't.

Photographs were being considered being published. Now they aren't.

Nobody wanted to claim the body. So they dumped it at sea.

And now it's okay to assasinate people so long as it's self-defence of your country.

I might have believed he'd been found if he'd been captured and brought to trial.

In other news, Iraq had WMDs, Lybia isn't about regime change, the war on drugs is being won and AV voting will cost ?250,000,000 ...

[Baseley09]

If he is alive he could put a video out.

[egparadigm]

In other news, Iraq had WMDs, Lybia isn't about regime change, the war on drugs is being won and AV voting will cost ?250,000,000 ...

We can't actually establish those as "lies" per se. In order for it to be a lie the person has to knowingly deceive, and we cannot know without being the person in question. If Osama Bin Laden is still alive, either (A) they're lying or (B) they're so incompetent they cocked up by either not doing the DNA test or they made an error in processing it.

Initially he was armed and using a human shield. Then he wasn't.

I'm not sure they did actually claim he was armed, just that he resisted – attacking without a weapon. The human shield bit could have been an error.

I'm also not saying they should be able to kill an unarmed man. Absolutely they shouldn't. I'm just saying I think he's dead.

[MartyG]

I'd go with b. I'm sure they shot someone in the face, and I'd bet he had a beard and a fancy bandage on his head.

I'm not sure they did actually claim he was armed, just that he resisted – attacking without a weapon. The human shield bit could have been an error.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pakistan/8489658/Osama-bin-Laden-was-not-armed-and-did-not-use-wife-as-human-shield.html

['Press Start']

Bin Laden knew too much dirt to be left alive (Assuming he did not die from some chronic disease ages ago). Saddam knew too much dirt too, especially his shopping list from the west.


Saddam - 'Thank you for the weapons of mass destruction Mr. Rumsfeld'
Donald - 'Your welcome Saddam, just don't do anything we wouldn't with them'
later on........
Donald - 'Dictator with weapons on ice, we'll call that card in when it suits!'

[Neon Ignition]

Let's be honest, they fluked 9/11 and aren't really that hugely more of a threat than the rest of the listed national security threats. Faking his death gains them nowhere near the rewards the risk is worth and these silly conspiracy theories are are just as daft as the one's circling Ground Zero. This is already becoming as tiresome as the Royal Wedding hype was. He's a dead old beardy man, people should just accept it and get on with more important things now... like Eurovision.

[MartyG]

I think you're underestimating the feeling of a large sway of US opinion. Bin Laden has been a great super villain for them a figure of hate and enemy number 1 - if anything the error is claiming they've removed him. Now they need a new one.

I do say yay to Eurovision - but as I said I don't really believe in conspiracies - it is however a good way to boost your flagging presidential rating

[bash]

Immortal Technique says something similar in this essay which he wrote after the recent announcement of Bin Laden's death. It's worth reading.

Just wow, Immortal Technique never lets me down, Hip Hop might be dead but this mutha fukker is still carrying the flag for conscience music/lyrics.

[Neon Ignition]

It's a big mindset boost for the US no doubt, but it's more in the practical sense that it's a small victory. I think it's like some of the news debates have said, compared to some of histories great villains like Hitler, Bin Laden is almost a nobody but the kety difference this time is we actually managed to kill him so it feels like a greater success than it is. I know some people are also keen to say it's conveniently timed to boost Obama's ratings but if it was that easy a trick Bush would have used it years ago as it was his war and his legacy that was battered over it.

The real test isn't Osama's death, it's how long they keep a military presence over there now.

[Dogg Thang]

His house worth a quarter of what the US claimed - http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...-hideout-worth

The US's history of backtracking - http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...tories-history

I must admit the misinformation pisses me off no end. Because, yeah, it feeds conspiracy theories that end up amounting to little more than misdirection. But they also know that an initial statement is far more powerful than its retraction. The 'wife as human shield' will no doubt be a story told in ten years time. Just as so many Americans thought Saddam Hussein had something to do with 9/11.

The misinformation can only be deliberate. Schoolchildren get their story straight better than these guys. Cops will talk through what just happened when they take someone in - not because there's something to hide but just so they all have their story straight. There is no way in hell that anyone making incorrect statements on this did so because they just didn't know otherwise. And, for such a high-profile mission, I don't believe for one moment that any statement has been made that wasn't 100% approved by the top.

If your wife lied to you this much, you'd leave her. But a nation will happily be governed this way and get out the flags for these people? Yikes.

[Ady]

Just wow, Immortal Technique never lets me down, Hip Hop might be dead but this mutha fukker is still carrying the flag for conscience music/lyrics.

Powerful stuff, isn't it? I'm glad people took time to read it given its length.

[Ady]

I'm not sure what photos can really establish anyway. They could easily be altered.

If Obama says so then that's enough for me. Logically, it would be crazy to claim he is dead if he weren't, since he'd soon pop up with a new audio recording or video.

I suppose they could release the DNA results, but that could be faked also, I guess. And you'd end up with some crazy German surgeon making clones in the manner of The Boys From Brazil.

I've been thinking about this too.

Releasing the photos won't really prove anything to anybody. Someone could still argue that they were faked somehow.

As you say though, if he really is still alive, then there's nothing stopping him from making another video...

On a slightly related noted, and referring to an earlier point about Good Guys vs Bad Guys, here is some proof that it can swing both ways.

The following articles detail past British involvements in overseas conflicts which have been far from virtuous:

1948 massacre of villagers in Malaysia by British soldiers.

Four Kenyans say they suffered abuse under British colonial rule during the 1950s Mau Mau rebellion.

In short. There's no such thing as good guys or bad guys. Everyone has blood on their hands.