America & World IV: Trump's Taxing Day

[fishbowlhead]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ance-continues
Well done America and Blair! Almost 20 years to the day the Taliban are on course to topple the Afghanistan government

But but the weapons of mass destruction!!! They WERE there, honest, just ask my pal Bushy, he saw them for real. Hey, want to buy shares in my arms company? I hear there going to skyrocket soon due to “unrelated” reasons, wink, wink.

[Brad]

I struggle to express an opinion on the subject because a) I'm not educated on it enough, b) fear of being cancelled (I actually don't care about this but you know what I mean). Like fishbowlhead says though it's an individual thing and there's probably a danger in trying to blanket enforce rules, laws and policies around it.

Everything comes down to whether you can provide rights to one group of people without removing the rights of another group. Giving women the vote could not be reasonably argued against without being sexist. Males did not lose any rights (rights, not privileges - some people confuse the two). Removing apartheid likewise cannot be argued against unless you are racist. There seems to me to be a valid argument that, for example, allowing former men to compete in women's boxing events is removing the right for women to compete on a level playing field. There's a counter-argument regarding women who's physique, hormone levels etc. make them much closer to that of a male anyway so what's the problem? And so, all we are left with are problems and name calling.

[cutmymilk]

Sport is absolutely one area where previous men should not compete with women. Lauren Hubbard may have failed at the olympics but it looked iffy to me and is a very dangerous precedent for women. Sharon whatshername is the spokesperson for women on this and has been victimised for it. The IOC has admitted the testosterone levels they set were too high also and that doesnt even account for men having denser bones etc etc.

The irony is that before Ronda Rousey no one wanted to see women fight in UFC. Now we are seemingly moving towards a world where a man identifying as a women can fight one.

[Brad]

I picked sport as it's a good topic to talk around. I mean it's just sport, but you can imagine other areas where women should have the right to expect there to not be men present and that's where the name calling and accusations begin because in order for trans people to have the rights they want (and expect) they have to be completely accepted as the sex they have transitioned to. It's not enough to be classified as a trans-man or a trans-woman; you have to be a man or a woman because otherwise you are different to both those groups and will not be accepted into them and without that acceptance you will not gain the rights of that group.

I wonder if for sport there could be a spectrum of characteristics and you compete within your particular range, like the weight divisions in boxing for example.

[cutmymilk]

The best "born female" weightlifter from NZ was very supportive of Lauren Hubbard. I wonder how much of that support was fear of cancel culture though. She will be branded a biggot immediately on twitter if she showed any hint of resentment.

It isn't "just sport" to olympic level athletes. They dedicate their lives to it. Women are just about level with men for the first time ever in regard to job roles and wages but now we have to take that back, of course.

[Brad]

Yes, it's a career for professional athletes but in the context of some of the subjects we could revolve this discussion around it is "just" sport, and is easier to talk about without it getting too heated (I'd hoped).

[cutmymilk]

No heat from me my dude. Just giving the opposing view that most women seem to have without being able to speak about it. The best video about this is a piers morgan interview (I know) with a white knight and an actual trans women who was embarassed to be associated with the new anything goes method of being trans.

[Dogg Thang]

Honestly the fact that you’re pulling Piers Morgan into it says everything. And you keep citing women. You’re a cis man debating the rights of trans people while trying to speak for women.

[Asura]

I believe that transgender people should be able to compete in the events as the gender as which they identify at present, even if they ever presented as a different gender.

Firstly, due to the testosterone thing which prevented some women from competing in Tokyo, which was complete and utter bull****. Those athletes had physical traits which gave them an edge. Is that "unfair" to the other women athletes? Yeah, maybe? But! I could never have been an Olympic sprinter. Like, even if I had trained from a young age, I would've been a far better runner, but could never have been an Olympic sprinter, because I just don't have the genetics that afford it. Maybe a rower, or a boxer, or a judoka, but not a sprinter.

If you get that, then you can understand that being an Olympian is "unfair" to nearly everyone. Like 99% of people could never do it, just because they can't, it's not a money thing, not a will thing, they just can't.

I understand that those who are of the male sex (in particular, went through puberty as such) have an advantage in some Olympic events due to masculine traits like muscle mass and bone density, and it would be hypothetically possible for such a person to compete at higher level in the women's events than men's. However, I'm not aware that this has ever happened, don't foresee it happening, and maybe think we should allow people to compete as their presented gender and monitor the situation, rather than just making knee-jerk assumptions.

If people were more reasonable, we could allow this, and from a detached perspective, adjust the rules to compensate. The problem is that most people who are expressing an opinion about this are doing so from the perspective of wanting to prove their assumptions, rather than learn about the issues transgender athletes face.

tl;dr, sport isn't fair, and even if it is, I don't think sport is particularly important, at all - and I think respecting people's presented gender is more important than sport

EDIT: One other thing I'll say about the issues transgender people face; I feel that "What about at the Olympics? Have you thought about the Olympics?" takes up faaaaar too much air in that conversation, considering professional athletes are such a small part of society. I'm much more concerned about this crap in the US where some states want to subject students to genital examinations or "legislate out" transgenderism. Those things are horrific.

[cutmymilk]

Honestly the fact that you’re pulling Piers Morgan into it says everything. And you keep citing women. You’re a cis man debating the rights of trans people while trying to speak for women.

Im guessing you have no significant other or daughters/nieces to ask?

And you know I put (I know!) after the Piers Morgan thing as it's one of the only things he has remotely done that makes sense. I am a leftie by nature and personally know trans people (pre op of any kind of course) but come on. As for the olympics, look at the record books to see the difference between men and women in just about any event.

[Brad]

I believe that transgender people should be able to compete in the events as the gender as which they identify at present, even if they ever presented as a different gender.

Firstly, due to the testosterone thing which prevented some women from competing in Tokyo, which was complete and utter bull****. Those athletes had physical traits which gave them an edge. Is that "unfair" to the other women athletes? Yeah, maybe? But! I could never have been an Olympic sprinter. Like, even if I had trained from a young age, I would've been a far better runner, but could never have been an Olympic sprinter, because I just don't have the genetics that afford it. Maybe a rower, or a boxer, or a judoka, but not a sprinter.

If you get that, then you can understand that being an Olympian is "unfair" to nearly everyone. Like 99% of people could never do it, just because they can't, it's not a money thing, not a will thing, they just can't.

I understand that those who are of the male sex (in particular, went through puberty as such) have an advantage in some Olympic events due to masculine traits like muscle mass and bone density, and it would be hypothetically possible for such a person to compete at higher level in the women's events than men's. However, I'm not aware that this has ever happened, don't foresee it happening, and maybe think we should allow people to compete as their presented gender and monitor the situation, rather than just making knee-jerk assumptions.

If people were more reasonable, we could allow this, and from a detached perspective, adjust the rules to compensate. The problem is that most people who are expressing an opinion about this are doing so from the perspective of wanting to prove their assumptions, rather than learn about the issues transgender athletes face.

tl;dr, sport isn't fair, and even if it is, I don't think sport is particularly important, at all - and I think respecting people's presented gender is more important than sport

EDIT: One other thing I'll say about the issues transgender people face; I feel that "What about at the Olympics? Have you thought about the Olympics?" takes up faaaaar too much air in that conversation, considering professional athletes are such a small part of society. I'm much more concerned about this crap in the US where some states want to subject students to genital examinations or "legislate out" transgenderism. Those things are horrific.

It's a nice idea. Take a look at the results of the 100m in this olympics though and you'll see that the 5th slowest man in the entire competition is still faster than the woman who won gold in the finals. Basically there'd be no point in women even getting on the plane. As I've already said, I'm focusing on sport because it's easy to understand and talk about without (hopefully) people getting too upset. I was genuinely curious to see what the gap was, if anything, and the 100m seemed a good place to start.

We could certainly try out your let them compete as their specified gender and see what happens approach, within reason. I'm not knowledgable enough to know if putting male and female professional boxers in the ring together is safe or not but on the face of it it doesn't seem like a good idea.

[Brad]

Honestly the fact that you’re pulling Piers Morgan into it says everything. And you keep citing women. You’re a cis man debating the rights of trans people while trying to speak for women.

This is a good point. I can tell you that when I first started to read about all this I spoke to my daughter (19 at the time) about it and I was far more concerned than she was.

[cutmymilk]

We have about 3 women on the forum. What do you all think, no judgement (hopefully)!?

[Dogg Thang]

Yep. I likely won’t engage on this beyond this post because 1) where sports is involved I understand that the categorisation of that is outside my area of knowledge and 2) beyond sports I don’t think cis people should be debating the rights of trans people any more than white people should be debating the rights of black people. But if this was really about the safety of women, we’d instead be debating the rights of men. Plain ol’ regular cis men. Not trans people. Because the danger is statistically not trans people. If this was about the well-being of people at all, we’d actually be doing everything we can to help and support trans people who are far, far, far more at risk of violence and difficulties than cis people, whether men or women. So I feel like much of the ‘concern’ is misplaced or, certainly in some cases, an attempt to veil transphobia. And it’s certainly not our place to decide if a trans person is legitimate or not.

All that aside, gender modification along with our complete reinvention is very much part of our cyberpunk future so I’m all for it.

[cutmymilk]

If you are a woman due to years of being given various treatments and surgeries, of course you are a woman. We are talking about people who can just decide. Men are already getting into female prisons in the states by identifying as women. There is definitely something wrong if that is the bar these days.

Edit....getting off topic anyhow. I guess the point has been lost so I will also leave it here. I have expressed views of women in my life though, as obviously none are on a gaming forum to express them themselves ��