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**fishbowlhead** · 22-11-2024, 19:40

Originally posted by MartyG View Post

Of course it's hypothetical, but the hypothetical answer is we wouldn't like it.

I've said before that war is a result of failed diplomacy, the sad fact is we've lost a lot of politcal standing from war we ourselves have instigated - we say the invasion of Ukraine was illegal, ok fine, from a Western viewpoint we don't agree with Russia's Casus Belli, but it's not really any different from the same reasonings we used to invade Iraq or Afghanistan.

This isn't being a case of whataboutism here, things like this don't happen in a vacuum, they're a series of unfolding events we've not been able to properly address diplomatically, partially because we've lost moral highground.

But consider this, would Ukraine remaining a neutral country really be a worse outcome than becoming directly involved in a wider conflict the end of which could be catastrophic? NATO getting directly involved with boots on the ground is the likely only thing that will turn around Ukraine's victory chances at this point and Russia isn't going to pack its bags and leave if that happens - and things escalate rapidly from there because no one is prepared to lose face. We're supposed to believe that we must defend Ukraine at all costs because Putin wants to invade all of Europe, but at the same time also believe that Putin is too afraid to act on his red lines and attack the UK/US military targets, but both these things can't be true.

War is stupid, politicians are stupid for instigating it and my prefered outcome would be every soldier on the battlefield saying, nope not going to fight, and going home.

This is so far beyond diplomacy Marty it’s not even funny, we’re all way past that as people and countries. Ukraine will fight till the last man now, that’s it, no turning back, no giving up, and they haven’t, so neither should anyone else.

You don’t reason with people like Putin, you decapitate them publicly as a warning to the next fascist dictator.

**Protocol Penguin** · 24-11-2024, 14:09

I’d like a peaceful negotiated end to the conflict as much as anyone, but I’ll have to echo the fact that any negotiation with Putin currently is basically going to have to give him all of what he wants, well, short of giving Russia a path to full annexation of Ukraine. Which isn’t a great precedent.

**Asura** · 24-11-2024, 18:31

Originally posted by MartyG View Post

But consider this, would Ukraine remaining a neutral country...

The problem, here, is that I can't help but read this as

"But consider this, would Ukraine being denied the right to self-determination..."

So what is better? Peace, but Ukraine loses an aspect of its sovereignty? Or war for principle? Truthfully I don't know. But it seems like the Ukrainians got to make that decision and they chose war.

**Neon Ignition** · 25-11-2024, 09:55

That's largely why it's a difficult situation to defuse. Whilst we'd be unhappy at a neighbouring nation making a NATO style pact with Russia, we'd be unlikely to roll into Scotland and start mowing down citizens or threatening to detonate nukes in the highlands as a result of it. Whilst war often is due to faile diplomacy by politicians, it isn't an equal comparison for Russia because Putin is a dictator - the same thought processes don't apply. By his own invasion expectations at the start of the conflict he clearly didn't even consider Ukraine to be much of a threat and them joining NATO wasn't going to see them turned into a warfooted battle ground ready and pointed to Russia. He's an old guard dictator with a huge ego and ideas of a great restoration of Russia that far outstrip his capabilities.

Because of that world view he won't settle for a fraction of what he set out to gain, he wants Ukraine on its knees and only gets what he wanted in a scenario where that is accomplished. Likewise, the west can't just throw Ukraine to the wolves for the sake of not getting involved in conflict - doing so simply tells aggressive nations they'll face no push back, a stance that will only end in a much bigger conflict down the line when they're much bigger threats and come knocking.

**Mayhem** · 25-11-2024, 13:36

Originally posted by briareos_kerensky View Post

The sweet irony of Russia accusing another country of unfair elections.

Not even that, there wasn't an election in the UK for ten years due to WW2, so it's hardly a precident that Ukraine decides any elections aren't feasible until the war is over.

**fishbowlhead** · 25-11-2024, 20:34

There is zero negotiation with Putin, whatever he says or signs, it is just to buy time to regroup and start again.

**Neon Ignition** · 09-12-2024, 11:45

Trump calls for ‘immediate ceasefire’ in Ukraine after meeting Zelenskyy | Ukraine | The Guardian

**Neon Ignition** · 17-12-2024, 10:02

Russia-Ukraine war: Kyiv claims responsibility for killing of Russian general in Moscow – as it happened

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/dec/17/russia-ukraine-war-general-linked-chemical-weapons-ukraine-dies-moscow-latest-updates

Lieutenant General Igor Kirillov was killed outside an apartment after a device inside a scooter detonated

**fishbowlhead** · 17-12-2024, 20:34

NK troops are being decimated when they enter combat, their still fighting in ww1 waves just getting mowed down, must be like shooting fish in a barrel for experienced Ukrainians.