The Orange Box (PC/PS3/360)

[Wools]

The bit in bold is a MASSIVE but though. Isn't it like saying if say Juiced had better handling it would be nigh on perfect?

Strip all the fluff away and HL2 is a shooter. You spend most of the time shooting. That it doesn't do shooting as well as other games is a huge minus point against it.

Not really. People have always moaned about Halo's lack of puzzles and level design, as it's just open for combat. However that is all Halo does and god damn does it do it beautifully.

Half Life 2's combat is not as intelligent but it is far more fun to play with and experiment due to the physics, far more explosive weaponry and interesting design decisions. Taking control of the Antlions for example.

But Half life is all about the Puzzles, ingenious level design and atmosphere mixed with combat. Half Life has that in spades whereas Halo has sod all.

And before anyone asks, I love Halo. I'm just comparing the two games.

[Brats]

In GoldenEye's Severnaya Installation and others you can choose to be stealthy and whether to take out an enemy to the left or right but that was the scope and depth of its levels. Half Life 2 is more narrow in mission depth, granted, but the weapons, gravity gun, space for movement and placed objects do open up the tactical Reponses for each set piece.

All Half Life 2 is missing is the stealth and the slightly more open playing areas. However it succeeds and improves upon GoldenEye in a number of ways such as level design, weapons and the physic based puzzles.

The difference between a level in which is open and allows the player to choose where to go and a level in which you are forced down a route is HUGE. In Severnaya Installation (thanks for the reminder of the name) you could choose to go straight on through the doors, or turn left down the corridor (shooting the guard though the glass in the door) and from the there the level kept branching and branching. Or you could even take out the guards with the key cards and come back to unlock the safe with the weapons cache.

HL2 has nothing like this. The most open it gets is large open areas like the water boat versus the gunship and even then options are limited. It has obvious trigger points and blatant scipting - neither of which appeared in Goldeneye. Try going though the Riverboat section really slowly and the scripting falls apart because it was made on the basis that you would race through it at full pelt.

And the weapons in HL2 really aren't anything special until much later on when the gravity gun actually becomes useful. I going for the achievement at the moment to play though Ravenholme with gravity gun only thinking it would liven things up a bit. It really hasn't.

[anephric]

Try going though the Riverboat section really slowly and the scripting falls apart because it was made on the basis that you would race through it at full pelt.

Yep, I did this at the time (on PC) and it really annoyed me.

[Wools]

The difference between a level in which is open and allows the player to choose where to go and a level in which you are forced down a route is HUGE. In Severnaya Installation (thanks for the reminder of the name) you could choose to go straight on through the doors, or turn left down the corridor (shooting the guard though the glass in the door) and from the there the level kept branching and branching. Or you could even take out the guards with the key cards and come back to unlock the safe with the weapons cache.

You are completly correct with the fact that Half Life 2 is more narrow and has less open than GoldenEye. GoldenEye had a circular or humb level design, coming up with the idea that the player could mostly choose which order to complete mission objectves.

I made the comparision between this and Half Life 2 due to the fantastic level design, combat and atmosphere that the two titles shared. Not that it was excatly the same game!

[Soi]

This thread is excellent, btw the way. People airing their views, disagreeing and all the time being civil.

Sounds like you just didn't like the whole setup to me. What you've pointed out are taste preferences rather than flaws in the design. You say you didn't like the linearity, but I personally don't like games like Oblivion as I find them too sprawling and aimless.

Games like Oblivion are designed to allow you to make up your own adventure as you go. Half Life 2 is instead aimed at giving you a specific and contrived experience. Within the context of the HL2 story, it makes sense that you don't know anything - Freeman has been in stasis somewhere for nearly 20 years - and also that you can't just stay hanging around City 17, because the Combine attempt to capture Freeman as soon as they become aware of his presence. You can't keep the experience plausible and focused if you give players the le-way to just wander around poking at things aimlessly in a situation like that.

I perhaps should have said that I played HL2 without playing HL1 or knowing anything about HL1?s story. This was quite deliberate, as I played it well after it came out and lots of people (including normal people who don?t post on games forums) told me that it was great and had a great story. I wanted to play HL2 completely fresh and enjoy it for what it was.

The fact that the game provided no context for what I was doing grated with me from the start. I had no idea who I was or why I was doing anything in the game.

Whether that is a taste thing or a design flaw thing doesn't matter, from a purely personal point of view I didn't feel any real involvement with my quest or much motiviation to complete it.

On my first play through (on my xbox) I ended up stopping playing soon after the prison bit. Not because I was hating it, but simply because I didn?t have any interest in getting to the end and had more interesting things to play. I ended up playing it a second time when it got added to the 360 backwards compatibility list.

[B1gBeard]

Strip all the fluff away and HL2 is a shooter. You spend most of the time shooting. That it doesn't do shooting as well as other games is a huge minus point against it.

It does shooting a lot better than Bioshock, but like Bioshock the shooting is really a means to an end.

To strip away all of the fluff as you put it and mark a big minus against the game because of its shooting is quite frankly nuts. Like Bioshock, the fluff is what makes it the game it is.

[Concept]

They don't gel with me because they are too linear and too contrived.

'Oh look there's a big wall in front of me. No wait, it doesn't matter I can use these fallen logs as a handy ramp' or ' Damn I need a big weight to counterbalance this ramp. Oh look, how handy that there is a washing machine on top of that scaffolding that I can push into it'.

But that's an irrelevant criticism. You can criticise practically any game out there for using videogame-y logic, Halo included.

I don't believe in the Half life world because it's so false. I feel so forced down a path that although the world looks good from the angle I can see, I know that the illusion is paper thin and that beyond the bit that I can see, there exists nothing. HL2 takes the idea of the 'corridor shooter' to its ultimate conclusion. The riverboat section is nothing more than the old cliche 'the mine cart section' dressed up and made longer. The fact some say it is the defining HL2 experience speaks volumes.

Of course it isn't Half-Life 2's defining experience. Those are the parts in and around City 17. That doesn't mean to say that Water Hazard is bad though. If you've found Half-Life 2 has taken corridor shooter to the 'ultimate conclusion' (and judging by your tone it's a criticism), then all I can say to that is you must have lived a charmed life.

Even though Bioshock was a linear experience, it still conveyed a better sense of a real world than HL2 imo. In fact, after the fervour had died down, wasn't the criticism against Bioshock that beneath it all it was just another FPS? Well at least Bioshock had the plasmids to play around with. HL2 just has a ten year old combat engine and that criticism applies double.

I don't know what you mean by that last sentence. Double to what? Itself?

Half-Life 2 has the gravity gun to play around with. Plasmids, or a relative comparison to them, wouldn't make sense in Half-Life's world - you're not a super human being. Besides, splintering the gameplay in such a fashion would have demanded different pacing in the level design and potentially unbalanced it as things stand. The game's strengths have never been in it's weapons' system (though I enjoy their feel).

As far as the passive experience goes, HL2 is a 10/10 game. The art design, the lighting, the sound, the music, the graphics (for the time), the lip synching, the characters - all that stuff that you watch is great. It's just that the gameplay, the combat, the controls and even the level design (i.e. the interactive stuff) are old hat and has been done so much better elsewhere.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. I can't be bothered regurgitating my posts earlier on in this thread but I explained the reasons why I feel Half-Life 2 works. It's due to varied pacing, the level design, physics etc. as well as the stuff you throw away as having nothing to do with 'gameplay'. I don't believe for a second that you're so naive as to dismiss the fact that the things you mention above don't play a significant role in establishing atmosphere, which in turn also plays an instrumental role in developing the feel behind gameplay.

I often find myself saying about HL2 that it looks great or sounds great. I hardly ever say it plays great.

Aye, well each to their own. I think it plays very well.

[MattyD]

I don't think he's in any position to offer advice on anything game related. Fahrenheit starts promisingly and soon "snaps" into being a heap of bat dung.

Exactly right, but to be fair I think getting dropped by Vivendi and fleeing into the arms of a dying Atari probably had something to do with the hastily cobbled-together latter third of the game.

[Brats]

Like Bioshock, the fluff is what makes it the game it is.

I get that, but personally I'm less bothered by the fluff than others. The fluff can draw me to a game, but it's the game that keeps me playing.

Personally, Bioshock would have been dull had it not been for the Plasmids which I forced myself to play around with (and therefore enjoyed a lot more).

But that's an irrelevant criticism. You can criticise practically any game out there for using videogame-y logic, Halo included.

I disagree. Not all videogames use this type of 'obvious design' to this degree. Halo uses it a hell of a lot less, that's for sure. Halo works best with a huge area withloads of different types of forces fighting one another which can flow in hundreds of different ways. And this kind of open ended, unscripted, sandboxy design is becoming a lot more popular, which makes HL2's heavily scripted, checkpoint-centic design seem very old by comparison.

Of course it isn't Half-Life 2's defining experience. Those are the parts in and around City 17. That doesn't mean to say that Water Hazard is bad though. If you've found Half-Life 2 has taken corridor shooter to the 'ultimate conclusion' (and judging by your tone it's a criticism), then all I can say to that is you must have lived a charmed life.

It is a criticism and by that I mean it feels like the whole game is a corridor that I am constantly pushed down. I haven't looked at HL2's maps, but if I did I imagine they would look just like a long strand of spaghetti rather than something more organic, more real. This is the disagreement I had about Goldeneye. GE's levels are actual buildings that link back on themselves like real buildings do. HL2's levels are mostly a funnel, save for the odd Lamda cache. I hate being pushed down a funnel in games like this, although it HL2 it feels worse because the game is trying to maintain a atmosphere of a bigger larger world, but fails imo.

I don't know what you mean by that last sentence. Double to what? Itself?

I mean if the criticism of Bioshock was that it was just a simple shooter beneath it all, that criticism applies double to HL2.

Half-Life 2 has the gravity gun to play around with. Plasmids, or a relative comparison to them, wouldn't make sense in Half-Life's world - you're not a super human being. Besides, splintering the gameplay in such a fashion would have demanded different pacing in the level design and potentially unbalanced it as things stand. The game's strengths have never been in it's weapons' system (though I enjoy their feel).

Clearly I don't mean to rip off the use of plasmids per se, but something wouldn't go amiss. At the time, the gravity gun felt good, but now....not so much. It's just another gun that shoots stuff straight at the enemy and is just an alternative for the other weapons (until later on).

The Portal gun in Episode 3 is what we need.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. I can't be bothered regurgitating my posts earlier on in this thread but I explained the reasons why I feel Half-Life 2 works. It's due to varied pacing, the level design, physics etc. as well as the stuff you throw away as having nothing to do with 'gameplay'. I don't believe for a second that you're so naive as to dismiss the fact that the things you mention above don't play a significant role in establishing atmosphere, which in turn also plays an instrumental role in developing the feel behind gameplay.

To me, games rely on their mechanics like films rely on a good script. You can have all the brilliant effects in the world, gorgeous camera work and amazing music, but without a great script a film will never be great. In films and games, atmosphere can only take you so far.

But imo the atmosphere in HL2 is forever broken by 'oh so obvious' design and the dull gameplay i.e. a seesaw next to an high gap with some handy bricks lieing around - I can't fathom how anyone can say that is great level design. I'm surprised they didn't have an item hidden behind a waterfall.

The atmosphere works best in the non-action areas - e.g. the opening and Eli's scrapyard. That's why a Valve RPG would be a great thing.

OTOH Portal actually has a strong (if simple) core mechanic and doesn't outstay it's welcome. Which is probably why it's the part of this package that a lot of people seem to have enjoyed the most .

[B1gBeard]

I disagree. Not all videogames use this type of 'obvious design' to this degree. Halo uses it a hell of a lot less, that's for sure. Halo works best with a huge area withloads of different types of forces fighting one another which can flow in hundreds of different ways. And this kind of open ended, unscripted, sandboxy design is becoming a lot more popular, which makes HL2's heavily scripted, checkpoint-centic design seem very old by comparison.

Its quite an illusion in Halo 3 though.

If you look at the end of the first level for example, overlooking the crater where you have to rescue Johnson. I looked at this and initially thought there were many ways to play it. On Legendary and Heroic lvls though unless you do certain things first like clearing out the snipers and rocket boys then really its just a lesson in frustration. In many other scenarios as well although the scope of the level was big you simply had to do most things in a certain way to stand a chance. Maybe it was me just not being very good at it but the sense of freedom seemed quite illusionary.

I can't level the criticism at HL2 of it being too scritped and linear though as thats obviously how its supposed to be and it works well for it. I never felt that I wanted to go here and see this or do this to see what would happen (on first playthrough anyway) as it was the engaging story and characters that kept me wanting to go forward and see how things progressed.

[Charlie]

Can't believe folk are comparing Bioshock to HL2 to be honest. It's all opinion, I know, and different things connect differently with different people but I liken Bioshock to a blockbuster Hollywood movie - all glitz and glamour, lacking in depth, and, like so many Hollywood movies, climaxing in a terribly over-the-top and predictable fashion. A classic case of style over substance.

[domsalvia]

Without wanting to be too negative before I've even finished the thing, HL2 seems to be an OK shooter with too many **** driving bits in so far. Maybe the FPS bits turn up later, I'm on highway 17 so far and my main memories are drab sewer bit, awful boat bit, nice bit running down some train tracks dodging a sniper, **** driving bit. I have quite enjoyed the FPS parts on the rare occasions they bothered showing up...

[Brats]

Can't believe folk are comparing Bioshock to HL2 to be honest. It's all opinion, I know, and different things connect differently with different people but I liken Bioshock to a blockbuster Hollywood movie - all glitz and glamour, lacking in depth, and, like so many Hollywood movies, climaxing in a terribly over-the-top and predictable fashion. A classic case of style over substance.

That's exactly my feeling about Half Life 2. I fail to see where the depth in gameplay appears in the game. At least Bioshock had the plasmids to experiment around with, but I do agree that it suffers from some of the problems of Half Life 2.

In fact, I find it more surprising that people think they are so different.

Its quite an illusion in Halo 3 though.

If you look at the end of the first level for example, overlooking the crater where you have to rescue Johnson. I looked at this and initially thought there were many ways to play it. On Legendary and Heroic lvls though unless you do certain things first like clearing out the snipers and rocket boys then really its just a lesson in frustration. In many other scenarios as well although the scope of the level was big you simply had to do most things in a certain way to stand a chance. Maybe it was me just not being very good at it but the sense of freedom seemed quite illusionary.

The freedom in the higher levels does sometimes rely on co-op play, but there are still ways to play it. I beat that level by picking up the sniper rifle and legging it to a safe position on the right of the map away from the gaze of the snipers. I was then able to pick off the hammer guy and then proceed over the bridge to take out the snipers easily.

On 'The Storm' I first beat the scarab by using the rocket launcher emplacement. Another time I beat it by staying underneath it with a rocket firing marine on my mongoose and then taking it out the traditional way by destroying its back. Another time I climbed up the crane and jumped on its top and then took it out form the inside. Finally, a mate and I managed to get a warthog up on the crane and drove onto the Scarab.

Where the hell in HL2 can you do anything like that?

t level the criticism at HL2 of it being too scritped and linear though as thats obviously how its supposed to be and it works well for it. I never felt that I wanted to go here and see this or do this to see what would happen (on first playthrough anyway) as it was the engaging story and characters that kept me wanting to go forward and see how things progressed.

I could agree with you if the story and exposition contstantly kept up with the action, but often it doesn't. Often there are large parts of dull action with no characters or story at all to interact with at all.

I'd also argue that the story isn't really that engaing and I constantly felt I was being pushed along by the game and the characters, rather than I actually had a purpose.

[Ian(not Ian)]

Due to my 360 being off for 'repair' I d/loaded Orange Box from Steam.
My first attempt at HL2 when it was first released failed miserably at the start of Highway 17

->Open Spoiler<-

couldn't figure out how to rught the upturned buggy - what a numpty I was

...and my PC at the time wasn't really up to it anyhoo.

Now, with a PC which is more than up to it I've restarted HL2 and, yes the shooting bits are a bit meh, probably because they're too easy, including the helicopters which are a total nightmare in HL1. But you cant beat the story and the attention to detail that has gone into valve's opus. Quite stunning at times it is.
The inclusion of physics based puzzles (even the see-saw) which hinder progress, or even assist in taking out the bad guys is nothing short of excellent and brings a smile to my face when they do. Gordon is a hero, a fact which valve reminds you of at various points during the game. I agree.

I haven't even looked at EP1, EP2, TF2 or Portal yet, I'm having enough fun with HL2 for the moment.

[rmoxon]

Goldeneye wasnt exactly freeform, you could either be stealthy or blast your way through, but nearly all the levels were in doors and the outdoor ones wernt exactly dense with enviromental detail so you still just followed a set path most of the time. It does have to be said though that the Facility from Goldeneye is perhapse the most perfectly designed level in an FPS ever.

Half-Life 2 isnt exactly Far Cry either in the open endedness department, but there are a few more options avaliable combat and progression wise.