The Orange Box (PC/PS3/360)

[SuperBeatBoy]

I got the neighbourhood watch achievement. WOO!

I didn't find it too difficult myself.

[Brats]

Concept,

Without wanting to go on another massive quotathon, we both know you and I have completely opposing ideas of what makes a good game. You're for atmosphere, story, characters and such. I'm for the game mechanics. I believe you enjoy the stuff that makes games more like other media whilst I like the bits that make them completely distinct.

You have yet to convince me that HL2 has anything that I would consider great gameplay (and you've missed many of my points and quoted me out of context) just as sure as I haven't convinced you that HL2 isn't one of the greatest games ever in your opinion. At least we're not arguing about the crapfest that is the MGS series or we really would be here forever.

One thing I will end with is that less linear, more open gameplay tht moves away from the Half Life 2 template is currently in vogue and long may it continue.

[Concept]

I appreciate those things, but if you perhaps believe that I don't want games to be games, then no, that isn't the case at all. I enjoy games precisely because they're interactive and they offer things other media can't. It's why I love it. The way we value such interactivity seems to be the main difference - how we see value in differing functionality and the order of its importance to gameplay. You know I enjoy games like Oblivion, Crackdown and GTA just as I do games like Half-Life 2, ICO or Shenmue.

As for MGS 2/3 - I can't speak for MGS4 but the previous two games have been outmoded examples of delivering narrative for years now. I still enjoy them even if they're archaic in those areas, because you get periods such as with The End, which remind you the clever and intelligent ways Kojima can form tension in the series' set-pieces.

But yeah, we differ. It's good to discuss different points of view.

[rmoxon]

Oblivion, Crackdown and GTA just as I do games like Half-Life 2, ICO or Shenmue.

Its intresting you should mention all these games, as none of them are entierly gameplay focussed

With the Exception of GTA however I do think the gameplay in all of those games has its merrits, if it didnt I wouldnt think them good games. Hence why I think GTA (along with MGS) is very overated... but I'm not gonna go into that.

Back to Half-Life 2, I really dont belive that anything else is more important than the gameplay, I think the gameplay of HL2 is great, the variety is supurb and everything right down to how the weapons feel is great IMO. But that dosent mean that all the other stuff thats good about it dosent make it even better still.

[JohnMcL7]

Half Life 2 is my favourite FPS ever (and one of my favourite games full stop) but the reason I love it so much is because it's so tightly scripted and because of the way it achieves its atmosphere/story and completely sucks you in. I'll be completely honest in that it just feels right to me (how dumb does that sound!) and leaves me completely satisfied. If it wasn't so scripted I don't think it would be as successful as it is. However I can fully see how it wouldn't attract everyone, it's a very personal thing as to how much you get into it.

I have to say I'm the complete opposite, the worst aspect of HL2 for me is the scripting. When I first played through HL2 I immediately marvelled at the well modelled environment and the physics engine. However as I moved through the city I felt more and more constrained because it's all a lie - I couldn't move through the city as I wanted, I could only go through a certain broken gate, up a certain ladder, through a certain broken windows to trigger a certain script or do it the way the script needed me to. I find that frustrating as I think City 17 is modelled extremely well but I just seemed to be constantly trying to work out how the game wanted me to play it rather than how I wanted to play the game.

I would have loved it if City17 was more open, giving you the option to run through the streets but have to take on more enemies or try and be a bit more sneaky and go through the buildings themselves or take some advantage of a physics trick to take a shortcut. Same with the vehicles, I hated those sections being forced on me I would much rather I had a realistic choice to use the vehicles.

John

[Concept]

Its intresting you should mention all these games, as none of them are entierly gameplay focussed

You don't think Oblivion and Crackdown are gameplay focused?

Different topic for a different thread, but the former appealed to me precisely because the narrative is (mostly) detached and splintered - the choice you have is more or less there to fill in the blanks and problems (of which there are plenty, technically and thematically). With Crackdown there's no pretention of story. It's a mechanically driven game entirely built around the immediacy of your character's levelling system. Most of my enjoyment centered around the ability to climb and and experience an exaggerated GTA-esque environment with an equally skewed character. It's where my hopes for Assassin's Creed lie due to my suspicions that the narrative and engine solidity might not grab me.

[SqueakyG]

The debate between Brats and Concept has been quite interesting. It's put a lot of good thoughts in order about what makes games "games", and what makes games fun. Of course, like all forum debates, it always teeters on the verge of getting personal.

Like Brats's: "I believe you enjoy the stuff that makes games more like other media whilst I like the bits that make them completely distinct."

That was a passive-agressive way of saying: "You like to be entertained, but I'm a real gamer."

I don't think that's very fair. I think they are both "games". You're a "gamer" for aiming and shooting at Combine soldiers and headcrab zombies. You're a "gamer" for making the choice: "Would it be more fun to shoot that explosive barrel or fire a circular saw with the gravity gun?"

However, I agree that the Halo games are much more focussed on combat simulation, and provide skirmishes and battles that feel more free-flowing and varied. Although "choice" is always an illusion in videogames (you can only play with the toys the game gives you, and you jump through the designer's hoops eventually), the enemy AI and wider environments of Halo provide a better illusion of choice than the heavy scripting of HL2.

Being a deeper combat simulator, the Halo games make you believe you are doing smarter and more varied things. But really you're not doing much more than you do in HL2. Paths are still very linear in Halo games, but disguised by the open scale of some levels, and sometimes the choice of which area to visit first. Also, it's much easier to hide path linearity in alien architecture than in real-world environments (ie. the paths you can't take in City 17 are obvious, but you ignore the fact that huge Forerunner installations only go in one direction).

But yes, I'm starting to see Half-Life 2 as a historical masterpiece rather than a contemporary one. It still plays great, but its game design is a little too obvious today. Enemy AI has been bettered. The illusion of tactical combat has been bettered. But it's definitely a "game".

[Brats]

But yes, I'm starting to see Half-Life 2 as a historical masterpiece rather than a contemporary one. It still plays great, but its game design is a little too obvious today. Enemy AI has been bettered. The illusion of tactical combat has been bettered. But it's definitely a "game".

I agree, it's just that 'game' part isn't very strong imo. If you stripped out the story, characters, lip synching, setting (i.e. the passive stuff as I call it) etc from Half Life 2 and just played them like the MGS VR missions, imo Half Life 2 would lose an awful lot of why people enjoy it. Strip the same away from Halo and you'd still be left with a great game.

You could argue that it's because Halo doesn't have that strong a story or characters to begin with and I'd agree with you. But it does have a strong 'game'.

Also there may be only one route to take in Halo and I agree alien structures are easier to hide linearity (although some levels in Halo 2 and 3 contain human levels and hide linearity a lot better than HL2) but that's not what I mean by it being open. Ther are a lot more choice open to the player - a lot more than simply choosing between throwing a paint can, a brick or a toilet at the enemy or using a gun. You could pack HL2 with a million different objects, it doesn't make much of a difference.

[Brats]

Like Brats's: "I believe you enjoy the stuff that makes games more like other media whilst I like the bits that make them completely distinct."

That was a passive-agressive way of saying: "You like to be entertained, but I'm a real gamer."

You've got me wrong there. I don't believe I am more of a gamer than Concept or anyone else. I want to be entertained - it's the sole reason I play games. It's just that what entertains me most is the mechanics of games.

Concept and I both love Oblivion but for different reasons. I know Concept enjoyed getting immersed in the world. I preferred messing with the levelling system and seeing how I could change my stats to make different types of character work in the combat.

[Charlie]

Completed Episode 2 last night and, wow, what a game. Didn't quite match the dizzy heights of HL2's closing two or three levels but brilliant nonetheless. Looking back over the entire series, I think the characters and dialogue are the best I've come across. It's difficult to explain but there's a certain human quality to the way they react to everything. Their gestures, facial expressions, tone of voice, little shows of emotion, it's all incredibly well done and, unlike 95% of game I've played, completely believable and identifiable. For example, I love the way, especially in Episodes 1 & 2, you come across resistance fighters who, while happy to see you, know that trouble has a habit of following you around and can't quite hide their fear that you're bringing trouble with you.

In short, easily the best game I've played all year, and quite possibly the best I've played since Resident Evil 4.

[rmoxon]

You don't think Oblivion and Crackdown are gameplay focused?

No, I dont.

Although I suppose my wording was wrong, what I meant was that I dont feel like the gameplay was ever the priority when the devlopers were making either of those two games, the world, the structure, and even the story in oblivions case, all seem more important than the actual gameplay.

Hence why neither game is really a challenge in any way I suppose.

[SqueakyG]

Looking back over the entire series, I think the characters and dialogue are the best I've come across. It's difficult to explain but there's a certain human quality to the way they react to everything. Their gestures, facial expressions, tone of voice, little shows of emotion, it's all incredibly well done

Yes. My favourite moment of HL2 is something really simple. It's in Eli Vance's lab, when Alyx and Mossman have a little argument. The dynamics between them are just so much richer than any other game would bother to create. Yes, its setting up Dr Mossman's

->Open Spoiler<-

betrayal

, but it's just as much about the way Alyx resents her becoming like a stepmother to her.

Actually, I tell a lie. My very favourite moment is at the beginning when you pass that little playground, and you hear historic echoes of children playing. That sends chills through me.

Also, I think we must take a second to appreciate Valve's decision not to dress Alyx in an outfit that would reveal her cleavage and midriff, like any other game would have done.

[cavalcade]

Also, I think we must take a second to appreciate Valve's decision not to dress Alyx in an outfit that would reveal her cleavage and midriff, like any other game would have done.

Agreed. Take this and Portal, and I think Valve can be comfortable as one of the few game companies out there for whom women are just another character in their games, and not a butt and breasts on legs to be served up for teenager titillation.

[Wools]

If you stripped out the story, characters, lip synching, setting (i.e. the passive stuff as I call it) etc from Half Life 2 and just played them like the MGS VR missions, imo Half Life 2 would lose an awful lot of why people enjoy it. Strip the same away from Halo and you'd still be left with a great game.

I don't agree with you but agree that without such a strong atmosphere Half Life 2 would be a lesser game.

Some of my favourite games ever made, such as Resident Evil 2, Metal Gear Solid 3 and Half Life 2 all have a strong emphesis on atmosphere.

I guess it reminds me of a few years ago where people were discussing the potental greatness of the Wii & DS. A lot of people said they are better than anything else due to the fact they are geared towards movment and just having fun. But a vocal majority do play games for fun, but want to be immersesed in a world and to play through a tightly woven story.

Both HL2 & Halo 3 are games, you can not deny that. But one is based on the combat and the other is based on atmosphere. Trying to tear each appart for not doing something it's not supposed to do is silly.

I love both types of games but adore when a Developer make something as powerfully provocative as Resident Evil 2 or Half Life 2.

[Concept]

No, I dont.

Although I suppose my wording was wrong, what I meant was that I dont feel like the gameplay was ever the priority when the devlopers were making either of those two games, the world, the structure, and even the story in oblivions case, all seem more important than the actual gameplay.

Hence why neither game is really a challenge in any way I suppose.

I'd disagree. The pre-determined story in Oblivion is secondary to the story you make on your own via the choices available to you, and as for Crackdown, since when has the world, your interactions within it, the structure and your available powers not been a part of gameplay?

I guess this is where we differ, but I'd rather avoid inadvertant typecasting. Of course gameplay is about challenge. It's also about a multitude of other things too and impossible to objectively quantify - it means different things to different people etc.

I'd agree with Brats that we probably enjoyed Oblivion for primarily different reasons. Mine wasn't simply being immersed in the world and doing absolutely nothing in it though (not that I'm saying that's what he said, I'm clarifying my postion). It was what the world happened to be made of. Being able to explore a dungeon whenever I felt the urge, take on a random side-quest, build up money to buy new loot and property, getting into mini-guilds like Knights of the Nine, develop my core skills and just diversifying my approach. I like the idea of occasionally dropping into Oblivion and thinking 'what am I going to do today?', because it offers that freedom. Those reasons are as valid as any other.