Japan is no longer the daddy...

[Brats]

Surely the game intricacy should heighten enjoyment, after all we are here to play games?

Intricacy doesn't equal a better game though. PDO is a lot more intricate than Rez but for my money it isn't as enjoyable. Conversely, Starfox 64 is a half way house between the two in terms of intricacy and yet it is my favourite on rails shooter.

If you're implying that more intricacy = more depth = a better game then I don't agree. Most flight sims offer incredible intricacy and depth and yet most are utterly dull.

I easily could design a game ten times more intricate than say VF4 Evo, but I doubt I could design a better game.

[JU!]

I feel that Western games do not have as much originality, because Western devcos are probably not allowed to take as many risks as Japanese companies idea wise, could we ever see a Viewtiful Joe developed by a Western developer?

Japanese games show alot more originality imo and are generally of a higher standard than Western games. Although some games in the Westy are very good, Colin Mcrae rally, Halo, Half life etc. I do agree with Nagoshi as well that most Western games are alo sequals.

[Scythe]

Japan has been the standard bearer in the industry for such a long time, the japanese knew it, the US devco's knew it etc..

However, as in most industries arrogance on the japanese part has set in and they've been caught resting on their laurels, and all of a sudden '**** look what Bungie have done!'

Personally, I still find most western games lacking in various categories and coming across as cold with poor characterisation but at the end of the day you can't buy a game simply on the premise it was made in a particular territory!

[Cacophanus]

Intricacy doesn't equal a better game though. PDO is a lot more intricate than Rez but for my money it isn't as enjoyable. Conversely, Starfox 64 is a half way house between the two in terms of intricacy and yet it is my favourite on rails shooter.

Intricacy of gameplay almost always makes a better game, but there are a few stumbling blocks over this.

Firstly, the learning curve is a tricky beast to handle. The likes of the original Virtual On disregards it (making the game initially very tough and unwelcoming to newer players), whereas Virtua Fighter 4 Evolution spoonfeeds the player in little increments until they achieve a sufficient standard to survive on their own.

Secondly, there is a question of balance. Rez is all style with very little content, whereas hardcore flight simulators are all about gameplay intricacy. Neither really work as games. Orta is a better game than Rez because it has more gameplay content within the context of the setting (both in terms of the gaming genre and narrative). This is not to say Rez is dire, far from it, but it received attention for all the wrong reasons.

Moreover championing the Japanese obsession with aesthetic refinement in games design is rather misguided. It's a nice bonus, to be sure, but has nothing to do with the nature of what makes the majority of Japanese games so great.

[Brats]

Intricacy of gameplay almost always makes a better game

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about this point. I can think of many, many examples that don't fit your argument, but I've got a hangover and can't be arsed to go into them now .

[Cacophanus]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about this point. I can think of many, many examples that don't fit your argument, but I've got a hangover and can't be arsed to go into them now .

True, there are game that are just plain awful regardless of intricacy. Yet the likes of Rez could have been so much better.

[JRMacumber]

Precisely. In the meantime western character design tends to concentrate on realism. The result is usually a realistic looking character with no soul.

This might have already been covered, but my understanding of this is that a lot of developers don't like to give their characters too much personality because they want the player to feel more as they THEY are the character. Bungie said that's why you'll never see Master Chief's face, and BioWare said they same for why they didn't give the player's character spoken dialog. That is how each devco tries to make the player feel more like the character, and not have the character a unique personality. Not all of them do this, mind you, but I read it before from others, so it seems pretty common. They want more immersion.

Again, sorry if this was addressed already. I've been meaning to get to this thread, but up till now haven't. I'm reading through it now...

[JRMacumber]

Western games can easily rival Japanese games for character design at times. Consider the Lucasarts graphic adventures for a start. Characters in games such as Vice City are also fantastic when viewed as the parody they were intended to be.

I do agree with Viapon that generally Japanese games have better quality control when it comes to presentation. The Japanese seem content to push new areas in style whereas the West seems to push more in areas of content.

Only Japan could have developed something like Rez or Viewtiful Joe, but only the West could have completely rennovated the lagging RPG genre with Planescape Torment and Neverwinter Nights et al or produced a astoundingly open game such as GTA3.

Sensible gamers get the best of both worlds. Viv la Difference!

I think I agree with just about all of that. So, ditto.