A year on

[Ouenben]

But the PS2 was only dominant in the software sales because the development community made games for it! How can this dominance be expected to happen any other way?

I also don't buy your argument that raw grunt power has to be absolutely top tier for developers to be at all interested in a platform. If that was the case, why doesn't everyone just stick with the PC and be done with it? And if its all about artistry, then why is it most of this power is just being used to render the same dull brown and grey environs in slightly higher resolutions?

Related to the above point, for all this talk of the Wii's apparent graphical ineptitude, I can't recall many 3rd party titles that have even attempted to test what the machine is capable of, which makes the graphics excuse even more feeble. You can't criticise the performance of a machine you've barely even tried to push.

To reiterate then, a lot of these graphically sophisticated games on other platforms that are being spoken of here are barely more than visual updates of previous-gen games, many of which are still mired in previous-gen mechanics that fail to really push gaming itself forward (which is something the Wii can never be accused of even if the attempts don't always work). For instance, beyond making everything look as though it was wrapped in cellophane, I didn't think Halo 3 looked much different from the previous games (it certainly didn't play any differently, that's for sure...).

And am I the only one who thinks Valve could've made a mindblowing Wii Half Life 2 conversion by combining the games environmental physics with the tactility offered by the controller? (And don't tell me the Wii couldn't handle the game - if the XBox could, then the Wii definitely could have done.)

To be honest I'm one who used to say "gameplay>graphics" and i still stand by it but nothing on Wii has amazed me as much as Assassins creed or Dead rising or even the 'theatre mode' in Halo 3 on the Xbox 360.
Super Mario galaxy would have worked just as well on a tradional controller. The pointer isn't that important in the gameplay anyway and could have been done by holding down a button and using an analogue stick. and the star bits are barely used anyway.

Wii sports is the only title that seems to have done anything revolutionary with the Wii-remote.
Warioware disappointed me with it's lackluster multilayer and alot of the games didn't feel as creative as the original.
Super smash bros isn't using the motion controls. Thank god.
As someone said before (dont think it was this thread though) so far the Wii has replaced button bashing with wand-waving which I fail to see as revolutionary or even more interactive/realistic for the player.
Wii has the potential for sure but to me Wii sports is the only title to grasp this. No big games have managed to use it well yet IMO.
- Metroid prime 3 may use the controls pretty well but they're still not as good as keyboard and mouse IMO.

[Ady]

We could argue as to whether this or that game makes good use of the Wii remote or not, but the fact remains (as yourself acknowledge) that the potential is there. And yes, Galaxy could've worked on a standard controller, but that's not the point; it used the controls in an imaginative and non-intrusive manner.

As for Wario Ware, I thought it was a good way of showing what the controller was capable of. Perhaps more 3rd party developers should play that game for inspiration.

[gossi the dog]

This is often said about Nintendo consoles (3rd party games selling poorly), but I don't buy it, myself. The SNES had plenty of 3rd party support.

But even with that third party support Nintendo's own games far outsold anything by third parties. I don't know if you owned a SNES in those days, but how many of the games that you owned were Nintendo's own games? At a guess I'd say at least 50% and probably over 75%. It's still the case now. In front of me I have 7 DS games and 6 of them are Nintendo games. I also have 20 PSP games, yet a grand total of 2 are Sony's own games.

I think another reason why the Wii has been slow in attracting third party support is that publishers have been surprised by it's success. The developement period for a blockbuster game is probably at least 18 months, and 18 months ago the Wii wasn't even out.

[saif]

Not sure that it would take 18mths for a wii game (lower costs etc) if you put a big team on it.

I would LOVE to see the Metal Gear team take the wiimote on. They are bursting with ideas for new tech I reckon.

The problem for the wii, imo, is that there is a lot of inertia against it from traditionalists. There is no reason, for instance, why we should not completely rethink control methods - keyboard and mouse should not *really* be the best way. But it is cos that is what we are used to. In the same way that using a graphics tablet is better for stuff cos we have got those skills already (pen based), trad gamers have got the skills to understand old style control methods and probably do it better that way.

It is nice that the wii offers an opportunity for cheaper games to be made although, I think the PSN and XBL systems allow that too and I like that.

[Team Andromeda]

also don't buy your argument that raw grunt power has to be absolutely top tier for developers to be at all interested in a platform. If that was the case, why doesn't everyone just stick with the PC and be done with it? And if its all about artistry, then why is it most of this power is just being used to render the same dull brown and grey environs in slightly higher resolutions

And if its not about graphics then why didn't NCL just make the Wii remote for the Cube and be done with it ?. I'm not saying every developer wants to make games with amazing graphics and engines , only the big ones with the man power and money to do just that. Which I thought was the point of this thread (why aren't the likes of Konami ect ) .

And I don't get your point about brown either , I really have to wonder how much you have played of the next gen games, if you think that is the case .

can't recall many 3rd party titles that have even attempted to test what the machine is capable of, which makes the graphics excuse even more feeble.

Fair point , but if you could provide proof that 3rd parties aren't using all the full power of the Wii and only Mario its the only impressive title onthe Wii that looks a step above the Cube , Then you'll have a point .

So please don't call my views feeble when you'be nothing to back your claims either .

And am I the only one who thinks Valve could've made a mindblowing Wii Half Life 2 conversion by combining the games environmental physics with the tactility offered by the controller

So let me get this straight onthe one hand you're moaning about FPS being all the rage onthe 360, yet want ' another' FPS onthe Wii.
While graphics and sound don't chnage the gameplay, the same is true for moving your arms/hands , the gameplay is just the same Only that you're moving your hand instead of your thumb to move the Twin Stick , still the same gameplay

Oh and BTW , The Colour brown is quite prevalent in Half Life II so maybe its not such a good idea is comes to the Wii anyway

[Ouenben]

thing about Wii is while motion controls are there it's not done much in other areas. as well as power.

No HDD - IGN made a video/article about it today and the problem with the Wiis measly 512mb storage. It's just not enough, all the channels and a few bigger VC games and it's full already.


Room for massive improvement online - Friend codes suck, no online hub/online friends list, wiiconnect24 criminally underused (not really Nintendo's fault as such though) No virtual console updates (Bar pokemon snap) despite Nintendo originally saying the potential for having new levels/characters/etc for VC Games. and no Online for them either which is a missed oppertunity IMO.

DS connectivity - I loved the GBA connectivity and now with much more popular consoles DS and Wii Nintendo should be looking to get this much bigger but so far there isn't all that much.

Wii ware - Why is this so late in taking off? XBLA and PS3 have managed to have their services working since day 1 why do Nintendo take so long to get these things going? Maybe it's down to the developers making the games I don't know.

[Ady]

And I don't get your point about brown either , I really have to wonder how much you have played of the next gen games, if you think that is the case .

I've played plenty of next-gen games, thank you very much.

And I sincerely hope you're not trying to insinuate that there aren't a lot of "brown games" out there, because that would be silly.

Fair point , but if you could provide proof that 3rd parties aren't using all the full power of the Wii and only Mario its the only impressive title onthe Wii that looks a step above the Cube , Then you'll have a point .

Oh, come on! Do you honestly expect me to have intimate knowledge of every single Wii 3rd party game's technicality? And are you honestly trying to assert that, after only a year, many of the Wii 3rd part games are pushing the machine to its absolute limits?

You seem to just be trying to contradict me for the sake of doing so without making any real point. It seems so long as I say "black", you will say "white" regardless.

So please don't call my views feeble when you'be nothing to back your claims either .

I said 3rd parties making excuses for not even attempting to push to Wii was feeble, not your views. That should be more than obvious if you've been following my posts, which you should do as you've been replying to most of them...

So let me get this straight onthe one hand you're moaning about FPS being all the rage onthe 360, yet want ' another' FPS onthe Wii.

/sigh

What I was trying to point out by mentioning HL2 was that it had enormous potential as a Wii game. It was an example. And I never said there was necessarily anything wrong with FPS games per se anyway nor was I moaning about them "being all the rage on the 360". In fact, I've not even explicitly mentioned the 360 anywhere at all in this thread until now, so I have to wonder whose posts you've actually been reading.

While graphics and sound don't chnage the gameplay, the same is true for moving your arms/hands , the gameplay is just the same Only that you're moving your hand instead of your thumb to move the Twin Stick , still the same gameplay

Now you're just being deliberately obtuse.

Anyway, you seem to have already made up your mind that the Wii has absolutely no merits whatsoever and nothing to offer gaming. So be it. It was really only my intent in this thread to try and present examples of what the console could offer games beyond just graphics, yet, as above, you seem determined to try and contradict everything I say seemingly for the sake of doing so whilst twisting my words (see your 360 comment above). You've also offered no positive contributions to the overall discussion which makes me wonder about what it is you're actually trying to prove.

I have no interest in trying to change your mind, it's not what I'm here for. If you cannot grasp the issues being raised in this thread by others as well as myself, and are convinced that continually advanced graphics are the ONLY way forward for games then you are entitled to your view, but debating with you is getting tiresome because you're not saying anything new or even worthwhile, IMO. Thank you for reminding me why you've been on my ignore list for the last few months.

You really are hard work.

[elkatas]

and no Online for them either which is a missed oppertunity IMO.

Oh certainly. It is just shame that most people who complain about this don't have clue what they are talking about. To summarize this shortly, no, it isn't reasonable to put online modes to VC games, and they would never work well. Why? Simply because games are emulated. They don't have anything on the place to compensate against latency, and only way to it compensate is to adjust framerate. In layman's terms, this which means that even 20 ms ping creates off-sync situation and/or below 30FPS framerate.To make online mode doable, whole game should be re-programmed from the scratch. That's why XBLA doesn't have that many retrotitles, and execution is sometimes quite lacking.

[Team Andromeda]

brown games" out there, because that would be silly

No more silly that trying to make out all next games are Brown, which is equally as silly .

Oh, come on! Do you honestly expect me to have intimate knowledge of every single Wii 3rd party game's technicality? And are you honestly trying to assert that, after only a year, many of the Wii 3rd part games are pushing the machine to its absolute limits

No so don't have a go at other people views when you've nothing to back up your claims either, isn't that a fair point ?. It took the 360 like 6 months before 3rd parties began to make it sing, now the Wii is ment to be so easy to developer for , please explain to me while next to no 3rd party engine looks that great onthe Wii, not even NCL games look that great bar Mario.

Maybe the Wii isn't as powerful as you think ?

HL2 was that it had enormous potential as a Wii game.

Like what ? It still be the same game , yoi're just moving your arms to control the action , instead of moving your fingers and thumbs onthe pad Big Deal . If graphics add nothing to a game, then moving your arms add little to the game too (in games like Half Life II) .

Anyway, you seem to have already made up your mind that the Wii has absolutely no merits whatsoever and nothing to offer gaming.

No I just saying that graphics or controls add nothing to the game if the gameplay is poor. So yes next gen graphics don't make a game, but motion controls don't either , the gameplay needs to be soild what every the game engine or control.

I'm just saying the better the machine the more chance the developer as of making a game full of score and meeting thier desgins , and you can do more . You know Wave Race 64 could have been done onthe PS and Sat, but its was the extra power of the N64 that made the game with its brilliant water Physics , adding to the game and making the scope of the game that much better.

No doubt in gameplay terms RE 5, DMC IV could be done onthe PS2 or N64 , but with the next gen Capcom can go to town far more and make a game which much bigger scope ect , what is so wrong about saying the Obvious ?.

But next gen shine doesn't always count, Kameo might use far more effects , but Mario Creams it and any other next gen platfrom game inthe gameplay dept.

Thank you for reminding me why you've been on my ignore list for the last few months.

Oh please stop the pathetic childish insults . Looking over that you've Responded to posts , so the ignore filter isn't working.

I'm just having a litte debate on why developers are backing next gen machines. I'm not having a go at your auncle or ant , but videogames corps and the pro and cons of next gen shine , or motion control

Get a grip

[elkatas]

Fair point , but if you could provide proof that 3rd parties aren't using all the full power of the Wii and only Mario its the only impressive title onthe Wii that looks a step above the Cube , Then you'll have a point .

Let see... here is the Rogue Squadron 3: Rebel Strike for Gamecube. Released in 2003, this game is technically quite amazing even by next-gen standards. It has following features:

- 24 bit color palette (For comparision, 99.9 percent of last gen's games had 16-bit color palette).
- 60 FPS per sec.
- Boasts higher polycount than Resident Evil 4
- 4x full-screen anti-aliasing
- Normal mapping.
- Bump mapping.
- Rim-lightning
- Light scattering
- Bloom
- Some of generation's highest resolution textures. On console that has only 3MB framebuffer.
- Progressive mode

And you are seriously telling me that 3rd parties are pushing Wii when they can't even manage 16-bit color mode or anti-alias? Same Wii that has three times more power than Gamecube? Oh never mind, forgot to look who is posting.

It took the 360 like 6 months before 3rd parties began to make it sing, now the Wii is ment to be so easy to developer for , please explain to me while next to no 3rd party engine looks that great onthe Wii, not even NCL games look that great bar Mario.

Certainly jumping from Gamecube to Wii is easy, if you know the architecture. Sad thing is that most developers don't know it very well. There was never any incentive to know Gamecube's architecture, and most ports were made very poorly. Effects that were easy with TEV were cut-off, framerate suffered, texture resolution was lower, and so on.

Oh please stop the pathetic childish insults.

Considering what garbage you always spew, I think that Ady's response was more than fair.

[Spatial]

Okay people let's calm it down a notch.

It's all been good sensible discussion up to this point so please don't spoil it for yourselves and everyone else.

After all, it's Christmas.

[Team Andromeda]

And you are seriously telling me that 3rd parties are pushing Wii when they can't even manage 16-bit color mode or anti-alias? Same

Hey and if you look who been posting , I've always said that RS II was better looking and more impressive than RE 4 ( I was one of the few) . I'm not saying that developers have pushed the Wii to the max, just that nothing I've seen from NCL or any 3rd party looks any better than the best looking X-Box game , Its a pretty vaild point

Sad thing is that most developers don't know it very well

I don't think many developers knew the 360 well before they had kits , and its not like the Capcom were the best X-Box supporters , but they made the 360 sing pretty early in . So I don't buy that argument.

I think the trouble is NCL made such a big deal of the Wii not having the Capabilities of the 360 ect, that development houses know they can put up PS2 or PSP engines on the Wii and get away with it , or its not worth their while putting massive Resources into making the Wii sing, when they really want to make impressive engines for the 360 ect and thats where the development and Resources efforts of the big teams are going

[elkatas]

I don't think many developers knew the 360 well before they had kits

Because X360 uses DirectX, and PC-esque shaders, anyone who has worked on PC-games during last 13 years knows them. DirectX has been serious advantage for Microsoft, because it is well known and robust enviroment.

[Team Andromeda]

Because X360 uses DirectX, and PC-esque shaders, anyone who has worked on PC-games during last 13 years knows them. DirectX has been serious advantage for Microsoft, because it is well known and robust enviroment.

But Capcom were hardly the biggest PC or X-Box supporters , They were far bigger supporters of the Cube and PS2, thier X-Box support was dire . In fact I wouldn't mind betting than many Jp developers are still trying ajust to western tools and set ups , now that all main consoles use western Tool , CPU, GPU to power the systems

[Dogg Thang]

Thing is though - the Wii is for kids and moms.