EDGE mag 10/10s

[Brats]

A question about LBP: Do you have to use the level editor at any point to complete the single player game i.e. are there any puzzles that require the player to go into the creator to solve them?

I ask because it's an area that Banjo Kazooie (another game about creation with no guns) got right. Although it's game creation part is not as audacious as LBPs (you're just creating vehicles rather than whole levels) but the single player game of BK forces you at certain point to use the creation tools in order to progress. But it's very well paced so that to start with it only gives you basic tools to make land vehicles and gradually adds in puzzles that require more advanced vehicles and drip feeds you those parts you need (as opposed to the demo which was a nightmare).

I don't know anyone that didn't get into the single player part of BK that didn't also get into the creation aspect.

[merf]

the 2 parts of LBP are quite distinct, you can just enjoy the whole thing as a player and never use the create tools, its what I've done with it as can't really be arsed to put the effort in to create anything decent.

its a good distinction to draw though as I'm finding Banjo a little daunting to get into at the moment, whereas there are no boundaries to entry on LBP

[TheForce]

if you don't like to create things in LBP you don't have to.
Personally I really like LBP, and I totally enjoy many of the levels created by other people, I just can't be bothered to create some of my own, I just don't have the time and patience for something like that. But I think it's great the level creater is in the game, because the people that get the hang of things are making some of the most amazing levels !
I have to face it, I don't have a lot patience and I'm more of a player then a creater...

[Matt]

In L4D, whether it be small improvements like the glow around your teammates

GRAW?

or the bigger ticket items like the AI Director

Personally I don't see what's so amazing about that tech. I'm pretty sure I could knock up an approximation in a day, then just spend a while playtesting to get the variables right. Voila. I'd even program it so users couldn't see the zombies materialising out of thin air in a corner of the room. But that's just my opinion

and the versus mode,

Alien Vs Predator?

Again, not everyone has to love the game, but saying it is not innovative is simply wrong.

Well, to me it's not innovative. It's good fun. But I don't see originality in it.

And finally, imo quitting a forum because the majority have different tastes than you do is a little bit sad.

Depends on the other posters. There are some really good guys here, and some right ****wits as well.

I hope Darwock stays

[Darwock]

I don't think I'm going anywhere, not while boredom at work exceeds irritation with the attitudes here lol. I was just saying that I now understand how Saurian felt.

Actually with regards to that, the only 'sad' thing about that particular situation is that this forum was deprived of one of the highest quality posters it has ever had. It was our loss.

[Brats]

GRAW?

Doesn't GRAW just put a blue outline round your teammates when they are in direct line of sight (which is the complete oppositite of L4D)? I always thought it was a device to distinguish your teammates because everyone looks kind of similar.

Personally I don't see what's so amazing about that tech. I'm pretty sure I could knock up an approximation in a day, then just spend a while playtesting to get the variables right. Voila. I'd even program it so users couldn't see the zombies materialising out of thin air in a corner of the room. But that's just my opinion

Have you read this?

http://www.edge-online.com/blogs/gabe-newell-writes-edge

Sounds sophisticated to me.

Alien Vs Predator?

I never meant L4D was the first game to feature different classes fighting one another (that predates AvP), but the set up for L4D's versus mode is clearly different from AvP (great game though that is).

Depends on the other posters. There are some really good guys here, and some right ****wits as well.

Niiice. Care to elaborate?

[Brats]

I don't think I'm going anywhere, not while boredom at work exceeds irritation with the attitudes here lol. I was just saying that I now understand how Saurian felt.

Actually with regards to that, the only 'sad' thing about that particular situation is that this forum was deprived of one of the highest quality posters it has ever had. It was our loss.

He didn't have to go. No-one forced him out.

[Matt]

My point is there's nothing really innovative about L4D. It's a good little game, fun to play, good online with some mates. It is what it is. There's so much love for the game, it all gets blown out of proportion and inaccurate hyperbole gets heaped on to it. Liking a game is entirely opinion, as you yourself say. Calling it innovative when it's really not is an incorrect statement so I felt it needed to be pointed out. It may feel new and "innovative" to you, but in truth it's not.

And I still think I could knock up an approximation of the AI Director in a day Seriously as well. Use the BSP to find an area out of view of the players to spawn the enemy; calculate the immediate space around the players to judge the best amount of enemies to chuck in; randomise the mix of enemies so certain people think it's far more sophisticated than it actually is; then start playing "creepy music" 10 seconds before it all kicks off. Modulate the frequency of spawning locations and spawning enemies for "highs and lows". I'd even keep track of what I'd spawned the last 50 games in each map, and use that information for a variety of reasons - see areas players frequently died if there were too many enemies [and then lower spawn percentages in those areas on Easy level, increase on Hard]; see what areas players would often pass through unopposed, so after 10 games running through a quiet area, I'd catch them out.

Then playtest to get the spawn percentages and enemy ratios correct.

Done

[Matt]

Have you read this?

http://www.edge-online.com/blogs/gabe-newell-writes-edge

Sounds sophisticated to me.

Well of course to Gabe it's sophisticated. To him, having more than one flashlight on the same screen is technologically impossible

[Brats]

Okay, let's say that you're right about it being easy to knock up an AI Director - has any other game done this before? Genuine question.

Because innovation isn't about effort - it's about the idea and execution.

[Matt]

I'm sure there have been other games that have modulated enemies. Possibly some older titles as well, though right off the top of my head I can't think of any.

There's no doubt Valve have approached it in a sophisticated manner, and my logic example above would just be the start. Give me a couple more days, I'd have it really kicking I'd not given the logic sequence any thought before, the ideas I posted above took a few seconds each to piece together. Plugging the holes would take a while longer, but really, I don't think it's complex

[Brats]

Modulated enemies isn't just what the tech is about though. Like a great horror film, one of L4D's real strengths is in its pacing.

I don't know of any game that continuously looks at data like accuracy and stick movement to determine the emotional state of the player and then changes the play to achieve the maximum possible entertainment.

If you can show me another game that does that, I'll accept your point that L4D isn't innovative. Until then, I stand firmly by my argument.

[ezee ryder]

Aren't Left4Dead and LittleBigPlanet both really good games?!

Seriously though, I can certainly see why someone (whether that be a magazine or whatever) would give LBP a 10/10. It is a genuinely refreshing and original game, one that comes in your face then farts nothing but fresh great smelling air

I haven't played as much of it as I have wanted to but when I have played it, multiplayer or single player (mostly multiplayer) it has been an absolute laugh. Infact I don't think I have laughed as much when playing a game. As for the creativity aspect, you don't have to create stuff if you don't want to and still get loads of enjoyment out of the levels people have created. Some of the created levels are pure genius, I played this Silent Hill one recently and it was so good!

[Matt]

Modulated enemies isn't just what the tech is about though. Like a great horror film, one of L4D's real strengths is in its pacing.

I don't know of any game that continuously looks at data like accuracy and stick movement to determine the emotional state of the player and then changes the play to achieve the maximum possible entertainment.

If you can show me another game that does that, I'll accept your point that L4D isn't innovative. Until then, I stand firmly by my argument.

LOL. OK, wow, it's keeping track of info like accuracy and erratic movement. Do you honestly get so scared in a game your movement on a gamepad is erratic? LOL. At best it's seeing if you're twitching from side to side. Really, I think the tech is a load of bull**** and Gave sure knows how to hype the **** out of something.

"Maximum possible entertainment". Oh please I'm actually laughing out loud now

[noobish hat]

I'm pretty sure neither L4D nor LBP are better than Tetris. Where the **** is Tetris' 10/10!?