Gender Inequality in Vid Games industry

[Lyris]

Not that any of this matters, for all the charts and statistics pointing women are nearly 50% of all "gamers" we know this is bull**** skewed by freeware social media/phone games turning a profit for about 5 games of hundreds of thousands where less than 0.01% of the userbase(all genders) spends anything

Not the first time the industry has interpreted numbers to help grow its userbase...

[Dogg Thang]

Gaming needs to grow.

Perfectly put. This is it in a nutshell.

[noobish hat]

There's so much idiocy in this thread I can't keep up. I don't know why what I said is difficult to understand. Murdering a man is worse than leering at a woman's tits, yes. But, as a general rule, men are not murdered on a daily basis. I'm talking about the average man's daily life here, not a war zone or death row. To cite those examples is so demented it's not even worth discussing because it shows a complete lack of understanding of what we are discussing. Women are objectified on a daily basis in real life, therefore constantly exposing boys and young men to movies, tv, games etc., in which women are objectified is reinforcing the belief that this behaviour is normal and acceptable. The average gamer doe not play Call of Duty and then go out to double shotgun some guy in the dick. That's why we don't need a campaign to address this in games. Probably quite often a man will play a game in which women are only there as window dressing and then go out into the real world and treat real-life women as window dressing. That's why there are campaigns to address this.

Also? You're creating a straw man argument if you think I'm saying that video games cause this behaviour. Nobody with a brain in their head is saying that, so save your breath. I'm saying it reinforces this culture. The fact that you don't think there even is a culture is a huge part of the problem, as I've said before in this thread.

[Resonance]

It's just boring. Objectifying women in games is just dull. Every female character has her tits out for no reason.
Playing Dead Space 3, met that woman for the first time, sizable cleavage. It just feels childish.

Gaming needs to grow. Women should not be just eye candy. Tits (and torso), should be used in more appropriate situations.

I'm not against anything generally against any gender, but things are horribly cringeworthy most of the time.

That I can completely agree with.

[Resonance]

There's so much idiocy in this thread I can't keep up. I don't know why what I said is difficult to understand. Murdering a man is worse than leering at a woman's tits, yes. But, as a general rule, men are not murdered on a daily basis. I'm talking about the average man's daily life here, not a war zone or death row. To cite those examples is so demented it's not even worth discussing because it shows a complete lack of understanding of what we are discussing. Women are objectified on a daily basis in real life, therefore constantly exposing boys and young men to movies, tv, games etc., in which women are objectified is reinforcing the belief that this behaviour is normal and acceptable. The average gamer doe not play Call of Duty and then go out to double shotgun some guy in the dick. That's why we don't need a campaign to address this in games. Probably quite often a man will play a game in which women are only there as window dressing and then go out into the real world and treat real-life women as window dressing. That's why there are campaigns to address this.

Also? You're creating a straw man argument if you think I'm saying that video games cause this behaviour. Nobody with a brain in their head is saying that, so save your breath. I'm saying it reinforces this culture. The fact that you don't think there even is a culture is a huge part of the problem, as I've said before in this thread.

I mostly agree but my contention is that the valid issue of the objectifying of women (although it is fair to say games objectify both genders as well as other groups) is being used by feminists to shoehorn a lot of BS in to gaming.The idea that games promote violence against women, or developers are anti female; they specifically make choices because they hate women. The issue of online harassment is separate from the development of games, but is being used to add weight to the argument that "men hate women playing games".

Is the objectification of women in gaming that severe? I mean you can point out some examples of women showing unnecessary cleavage (is this really that awful? What happened to women dressing how they want?) or DOA, or Read Dead/GTA 5 but these games are far from the norm and objectify men for their strength, disposability and looks. For the most part, games appear to be indifferent to women or put them in the damsel role. Or if they do put women in to the lead role someone like Anita complains that they are too masculine (???) I would happily argue that the fashion industry does women far more actual harm to young women than gaming.

Should there be more diversity in games? I think it would be a good idea, but it should really come from more people from differing backgrounds making great games not pressuring people to make games that they are not interested in making or believe will lose them money. This is my big problem with the SJW crowd, they don't actually want to produce anything, even when given a chance such as an all women game jam to help women make games, the screw it up. They JUST want to complain, criticise and tear down.

[noobish hat]

Is the objectification of women in gaming that severe? I mean you can point out some examples of women showing unnecessary cleavage (is this really that awful? What happened to women dressing how they want?) or DOA, or Read Dead/GTA 5 but these games are far from the norm and objectify men for their strength, disposability and looks. For the most part, games appear to be indifferent to women or put them in the damsel role.

What are you talking about? You realise these are fictional characters? They didn't choose to have their tits out, they were designed by men to be that way. And yes, men are also objectified for their looks in games and movies etc, but how does this relate to real life? I have never once walked down the street and been heckled or made to feel threatened as a result of my masculine/unmasculine appearance. I don't believe my employment prospects or the respect I receive or anything else has been affected based on whether I do or do not look like Marcus Fenix. It would be very naive to think that the equivalent situation is not true for women.

[Lyris]

And yes, men are also objectified for their looks in games and movies etc, but how does this relate to real life? I have never once walked down the street and been heckled or made to feel threatened as a result of my masculine/unmasculine appearance. I don't believe my employment prospects or the respect I receive or anything else has been affected based on whether I do or do not look like Marcus Fenix. It would be very naive to think that the equivalent situation is not true for women.

Respectfully, you've missed the point there. I don't think anyone was arguing that appearance plays much of a role in male objectification.

Men are objectified for their utility. The most obvious manifestation in games - if you want to put your Obsessive Gender Studies Disorder hat on - is being used as cannon fodder.

[noobish hat]

But again, how would you say that translates to real life. I don't think I or any other bloke I know has ever been regarded as cannon fodder.

[Lyris]

Well, in the country I'm living in right now, young people between a certain age are legally required to sign up for selective military service. Of course, I'm playing devil's advocate there - I didn't mean young people. I just meant young men. Women get a free pass.

I think there's a similar situation in Germany, men are forced into military service. The men who can jump through enough hurdles and establish strong pacifist credentials don't have to do boots-on-gravel stuff but instead are made to do community service. Again, women don't have to do anything. To actually literally be pushed into combat would require going back decades (at least in this part of the world), but I don't think that undermines my point about traditionally being objectified for utility.

See also, men's financial role in relationships (I'm not sure if there are many examples of how this appears in video games, granted, since relationships are rarely a topic that comes up there). Or the rigid gender stereotypes that men are pressured into conforming to. Anything that strays too far out of the territory of "provider" gets scrutinized.

I'm not a social justice warrior, BTW; I actually feel a bit crummy about airing social injustices on a gaming forum, but it's relevant enough. Men being portrayed as cannon fodder in video games does not really concern me. What DOES concern me is professional complainers like Anita Sarkeesian and other self-confessed feminists (who claim to be all about gender equality) ignoring the other half of the issue. That's my beef: the use of the word Equality. You don't just get to throw that word around.

[briareos_kerensky]

I think there's a similar situation in Germany, men are forced into military service.

Switzerland (and with its own set of very peculiar rules), Germany abolished it some years before, just like Italy did. I think that the only country conscripting men and women is Israel, the rest are either only men or no conscription at all.

[Asura]

for all the charts and statistics pointing women are nearly 50% of all "gamers" we know this is bull**** skewed by freeware social media/phone games turning a profit for about 5 games of hundreds of thousands where less than 0.01% of the userbase(all genders) spends anything or they make it of the adverts, games get developed where the money is and that will always be in our life times for a male audience.

Those studies I quoted had figures from the 90s that disputed that. Only really console gaming back then. It isn't 50/50 but it's certainly not 99/1% as some people think it is.

[Dogg Thang]

I actually feel a bit crummy about airing social injustices on a gaming forum, but it's relevant enough. Men being portrayed as cannon fodder in video games does not really concern me. What DOES concern me is professional complainers like Anita Sarkeesian and other self-confessed feminists (who claim to be all about gender equality) ignoring the other half of the issue. That's my beef: the use of the word Equality. You don't just get to throw that word around.

Lyris, almost none of your posts have been on the specific points raised. They have either been "but what about men?!!" or, as in the quoted section, "feminism is a terrible thing". You've stated here that you don't really care about your "but what about men?!" points so it's about the latter. You don't want feminism.

Feminism IS about equality. In spite of being over 50% of the population, women are either underrepresented or poorly represented in many forms of media, games included. Some people like Anita Sarkeesian and other "self-confessed feminists" (seriously?) point out examples and get everything from plan rejections to rape and death threats. It feels as if, like you, they don't want equality. Are they threatened by it? Probably, if it gets them so angry. By the way, equal representation would help your cannon fodder point because part of this problem goes back to the default human=male point. But you don't want equality. You are very clearly against a woman who would stand up for better and equal representation. Like a white guy in a black rights rally shouting "but what about the white people?!".

If you dislike a portion of the human race to the point where you don't want to listen to talk of equality or don't want your dominance, advantages or privilege challenged, you are the problem.

Would we be having this same discussion if this was about representation of black people, I wonder? Would people talk about pro-race equality like it's a bad goal?

[Lyris]

Feminism IS about equality.

Feminism is about equality in theory. I think its idea of "equality" is a little simplistic, though. Feminism's view of equality seems to be that men are have everything great and once some discrimination against women is corrected, things will be equal. I don't believe it is that simple.

Lyris, almost none of your posts have been on the specific points raised. They have either been "but what about men?!!" or, as in the quoted section, "feminism is a terrible thing".

Do you not feel that "But what about men?!!" (exclamation points yours) is a valid question to ask when the subject of gender equality is brought up?

It feels as if, like you, they don't want equality.

[...]

But you don't want equality.

[...]

If you dislike a portion of the human race to the point where you don't want to listen to talk of equality

Sorry Dogg, but that is outrageous. (And I say that calmly, and do appreciate the quality of the mostly level-headed discussion going on here). I don't understand how, because I'm critical of current feminism, you come to the conclusion that I "dislike a portion of the human race"? By that McCarthyist token, are you implying that I'm a misogynist? Correct me if I've misinterpreted this - I'm enjoying this debate but can't tolerate that kind of accusation. (Hopefully by "portion of the human race" you were referring to YouTube celebrities ) Seriously, who could honestly say with a straight face that they're against equality? It'd be absurd and irrational, to say the least.

Can you remind me what the specific points raised are? If I haven't commented on them, it's probably because I have no disagreement - or nothing to add.

[Dogg Thang]

Lyris, the thread is all here for you to go back over yourself. I don't need to recap it for you. As for everything else, this is my own personal observation of the words used and it is right there in this new post too. You say you can't tolerate the accusation and yet still you're still shouting "what about men?!" (Overrepresented and in the majority position in spite of not being the majority) as the instant reaction to any question of "what about women?" (Underrepresented and poorly represented) in spite of you clearly saying you don't even care about what you're saying. So the only reason I can conclude is that drowning out the question of equality and distracting from points raised about equality is what is important. You have made it very clear that you are anti-feminist.

Feminism: the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes.

[Lyris]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on semantics, then. I do not feel that holding something to account is the same as drowning things out.