Gender Inequality in Vid Games industry

[randombs]

Today I decided I'm going to watch Sarkeesian's YT videos. Saw Damsels in Distress pt.1 during my lunch break (pt.2 is for the train home). I liked it.

Scrolling through the thumbs for reply videos I saw one with a weird guy holding up what I think is Persona 4 and another game and I wondered if he was going to say "but these games have strong women in them!" which is true but Persona 4 is hardly the Mario franchise. And I'm sure some clever types have picked apart her arguments but if she's not happy with the state of gaming and is making videos that definitely aren't making me tear my eyes out or do the Jackie Chan wtf face then more power to her. I did feel that Dragon's Lair was unfairly picked on, though. From the clip it seemed like the princess character was designed to take the piss out of the very trope she's arguing against.

Seems a lot of her issues in that episode are with Miyamoto and, living in Japan now, I expect the damsel in distress trope won't vanish any time soon. I'm going to sound like a bigot or something but I often treat Japanese thinking in a "hopefully they'll catch up with us sooner or later" way but I do feel like Western devs should be leading the way in regards to positive female representation in gaming.

[kellog7]

"but I often treat Japanese thinking in a "hopefully they'll catch up with us sooner or later" way "

Yeah because our society is so perfect.

[MrKirov]

Saw this post on another forum, and couldn't agree more.

"It's just she seems way more interested in boosting her media profile than actually properly analysing or trying to change anything.

I mean this was on BBC Technology news earlier.

She keeps getting all of this media attention without doing anything constructive.
And no, pointing out incredibly obvious sexist characters, having a massive agenda and misrepresenting some games isn't constructive.

Yes the attention she has bought to the issue has been constructive. But none of her actual work has been."

[Dogg Thang]

See I would see pointing out incredibly obvious sexist characters as being very constructive, especially when it is met with denials, shouts of "agenda" (well obviously) and threats that only go to illustrate that either the effects of these sexist representations are very real or, alternatively, they are attracting a sexist audience. Either is bad.

Edit: Oh and the last two sentences you quoted don't really work. Her work brought that attention and so it has been constructive.

To be honest, the whole gamer gate has been exposed as so ugly and vile at this stage that I can't see any rational person still clinging to it. It's not good for games and it's not good for gamers.

[MrKirov]

I just think she herself is a bit of a hack. Her "work" is basic at best from viewing a few of her videos and never really goes deeper than "look at this sexist character in THIS game this week". For the money she's had, I expect deeper looks and argument. You know, actual work and study.

It's clearly an issue in every media, and not just gaming. People are dicks about stuff when they're overprotective over something, and if she did this about films, TV or music she's get the same reaction from the mental people in this world. Sadly the buffoons of the world come out of the woodwork with these type of things.

It's a genuine issue, and the attention is a good thing- but I just find her coverage of it a bit of a sham.

It's cool how these idiots still don't realise that they're the ones enabling Sarkeesian to have a career talking about this stuff. The abuse and threads validate her claims, but again I think this would happen with any media. I was all for the idea of what she planned to do- but what's she's put together- from what I've seen- don't show me any real study - just standing there pointing out the obvious tropes.

[Dogg Thang]

No, she really wouldn't get the same reaction and I think that's the real problem here. You're right that it's an issue in every media but it has been dissected in movies and TV for years and, actually, it didn't bring out the crazies. Not like this. Not even close.

Gaming has got some real crap to sort out and it can't be done by ignoring or dismissing the people who are drawing attention to the problem. First step is to admit you've got a problem.

[MrKirov]

Well, we shall have to agree to disagree there. Clearly from your many posts about the issue it seems to be something you're passionate about- but I find her a but of a sham. There's no actual dissection of the issues, no quotes, no interviews, no journalism at all.

All that money given and she just stands there infront of a camera pointing out what she considers to be the "wrong" type of female characters. There's no mention of the strong female roles, no kind of in depth study of the opposite side of the argument, or interviews with developers that share her views and have created the very characters she wants to achieve.

That's where the "agenda" arguments come in. There's no balancing to her arguments, she just stands there talking at you- which is why I think potentially her herself rubbed some people up the wrong way- even if they share her views. I'm talking about her legitimate critics here, and obviously not the ridiculous death threat stuff.

[Neon Ignition]

I think she put herself at a disadvantage by being so generic and not targeting herself on key areas. The gaming industry is certainly male centric but talking about Mario saving Peach etc achieves very little as you're basically telling people what they already know, that women had less rights and representation 30 years ago. Said series have pretty much just stuck with what works since then as there's no drive to change and she'd be better served focusing on current issues. Essentially focusing her arguement. She should be interviewing female development staff about work practices, difficulties in the industry etc also indie developers as they have far less restrictions and yet a male dominance still exists. Things like is the industry designed around holding women back or do women generally not have interest in it career wise enough to make an equal workplace? Is Ubisofts Jade Raymond a trailblazer female developer or cheap symptom of the issue used by Ubi for her looks? Certainly nothing about the issue is gaming specific as other media forms are just as bad, she's used gaming to raise her profile but then I suppose that's her achieving where others have not.

[MrKirov]

I think she put herself at a disadvantage by being so generic and not targeting herself on key areas. The gaming industry is certainly male centric but talking about Mario saving Peach etc achieves very little as you're basically telling people what they already know, that women had less rights and representation 30 years ago. Said series have pretty much just stuck with what works since then as there's no drive to change and she'd be better served focusing on current issues. Essentially focusing her arguement. She should be interviewing female development staff about work practices, difficulties in the industry etc also indie developers as they have far less restrictions and yet a male dominance still exists. Things like is the industry designed around holding women back or do women generally not have interest in it career wise enough to make an equal workplace? Is Ubisofts Jade Raymond a trailblazer female developer or cheap symptom of the issue used by Ubi for her looks? Certainly nothing about the issue is gaming specific as other media forms are just as bad, she's used gaming to raise her profile but then I suppose that's her achieving where others have not.

Exactly my point. She doesn't seem to actually be DOING anything with all the money she gained. Her job is to show the viewers the real issues behind the females in the industry, but she's just not doing anything of the sort.

[Dogg Thang]

There's no balancing to her arguments

It is not in her remit to be balanced. Games are not balanced, they are massively male-skewed and so that side does not require her representation. Of course she has an agenda - to point out where games are failing in female representation. It's a valid and needed agenda.

As far as the legitimate critics go, I have no doubt there is a lot of very valid criticism. That doesn't in any way nullify every point she makes and, far more importantly, right now it is enabling the "ridiculous death threat stuff". Having looked at the way things have gone over the last few months, anyone who feels it is of more vital importance to pick apart trope videos than to address the sheer volume of misogyny on all kinds of levels from gamers is part of the problem. The ugly side of gaming has been exposed and it's not getting any less ugly. This is fuel for Daily Mail articles for decades because it's essentially proving many whacked-out fears to be correct so it's in all our interests to address the problem rather than shooting the messengers or going on misogyny-fueled witch hunts.

[MrKirov]

Of course she requires balance, what a ridiculous thing to say. There are plenty of examples of strong female protagonists. She chooses not to use that as a way to balance her argument, to show that it can be done right, and more importantly- why - they are the right examples. She could show and lead by example.

I agree with the fact it's an issue, but I don't agree with her videos- and that all the money she gained, she has done nothing with. All that money could have been used in a better way than standing infront of a camera, which could have improved her argument immeasurably- which then would potentially tackle the issue in a more informative and game changing way.

[Dogg Thang]

Sorry, I thought you meant balance in the "what about us men?!" reaction, which has been all too common.

Okay, you don't agree with her videos. That's fine. It's great you agree it is an issue. But since the last time this thread had discussion, several more women have been harassed out of the industry and there have been countless more threats and scares. And yet instead of posts in here of: OMG, this stuff is vile, gaming has got a real misogyny problem that we've got to address and I'm going to do everything I can to distance myself from those people, we get: yeah, I don't like her videos and so she's not contributing. Making her the problem. And even if you're right about her videos, the problem is right here in the lack of reaction to those proving her to be correct all along. There is a problem, it is a gaming problem and we're right in the heart of it here.

[MrKirov]

Well I'm not in the industry, and there's nothing I can do about it even if I would like to see a change.

Wanting her to do a better job to enable that change, and explaining the reasons why and how is all I can do - that's not turning her into a problem.

I'm asking her to do what she set out to do in her original kickstarter request- there are legitimate questions about what she's done with all the money she had- and whether she intends to improve her arguments using those funds.

She's gotten what she wanted, the attention has been gained, and now it's time to do what she devoutly promises to want to do- enable change. I'm looking to her to do that as she has self appointed herself the champion of that change. More of the same videos will do nothing- time to step it up I think, everyone is watching- time to start doing that in depth analysis and meeting of people on the industry.

[Dogg Thang]

Yeah that's all fine. It's a tiny thing compared with what has been revealed throughout this whole mess, not remotely limited to her videos. Whatever about those legitimate questions, she made a point: gaming has a gender problem. She's right, the point has been made very clearly by the reaction. And it's a far, far bigger problem to address than the medium used to get the point across. And yet we're still on that. As for "nothing I can do about it" - this is now about gamers. We are gamers. So yes, we can do things about it and if I were to recommend a first step, it would be (having already acknowledged the problem, which you've done) call out the misogyny and support the efforts to prevent it rather than enabling it.

[MrKirov]

I am supporting the efforts. I want her to do a better job! One that's more hard hitting, informative and likely to change people opinions.