LCD/Plasma/CRT/DLP - questions

[Salsa Party Animal]

Is that Sarah Michelle Gellar in picture ?

[andrewfee]

No disrespect intended, but i'm so glad i'm not you!!

I noticed a few times how you said certain things were bad on the phillips or ok yet bad on the Samsung. I don't notice any of these things at all, downloaded a 720P trailer of Narnia on 360 today, i just sat there in awe.

Goodl uck finding a screen you will be happy with, but by the sounds of it you may need to be a little less anal as it doesn't sound as though you'll find a creen out now that will impress you enough

Good luck.

Sorry, I must have missed your reply earlier. I'm having a hard time trying to put my thoughts into words here, but my intention is not to offend anyone.

It all depends on how much you "care" about image quality, how much you know about video, what it is capable of, and what you actually expect to get out of a display.

There are millions of people that just buy the cheapest decent-sized CRT the local shop has, or a Sony, because that must be the best, or if they feel like splashing out, "one of those flat tellies" without demoing it, or trying out DVDs etc with it. Or maybe they'll just glance at the wall of displays showing the awful store feed, and pick which one looks best to them. They get home, plug in Sky / NTL etc with the cheap-o SCART cable it came with into the first socket they see, turn the TV on and that's it. They're happy. They don't know / care that it's composite they're watching, or that it can get a lot better just by enabling the "RGB" setting, and plugging it into the right socket, or by buying a better cable.

If they're really adventurous they'll go into the picture menus and pick a preset they like, and maybe crank the sharpness / colour control up.

Most times, this results in what I would describe as an awful picture, but they don't care - they just want something they can turn on, sit in front of, and watch TV. They'll likely keep it as long as it lasts. They're completely happy with what they have, because they don't care enough about it to find fault with it.



Other people buy a medium priced display, do some research, and will perhaps buy Avia / DVE, but only at a push. (why people don't like spending ?15-30 to help them get a better picture when they've just spent hundreds is beyond me)

These people know what the best connections are, or at least, will make the effort to find out. They'll play around with the settings until they get a picture they're happy with, and perhaps if they're having trouble getting it to look "right" they will buy DVE / Avia.

They'll maybe spot a couple of issues with the technology, but it doesn't bother them enough to return the set.

Or, they just won't see them. There are many people that either don't, or can't see a lot of problems some technologies have. Millions of people don't notice CRT flicker. There are loads that can't see the DLP "rainbows" etc.

While they may realise that they don't have the best picture possible, they are happy with the image, and once they get settings they like, they leave it at that, relax, and enjoy it for the next few years, and will maybe upgrade when they see something better on display somewhere.



Then you have the real enthusiasts, the hardcore. These are the people that spend obscene amounts of money on their display, but they don't stop there. They'll either pay for ISF calibration, or will buy calibration hardware/software, and try to do it themselves, learning as they go. They're constantly tweaking settings, upgrading components as they go, trying to get the best image they can. They want to be as immersed in the image as possible, and things like edge enhancement, motion blur, poor blacks, ruins the experience for them.

When they buy a film, they make a habit of finding out which version of the DVD is the best, and import it. (there is a surprising amount of difference between regions) Or, they may have something like a D-VHS player instead. You can be sure that they will own the first BluRay and HD-DVD players.

But it doesn't stop there - they will spend more on scalers than most people do on their televisions themselves. They'll use connections like SDI, which most people haven't even heard of, and if they have the money to do so, upgrade their display every few years.



If you are happy with your television, then that is great! It means you can sit back, relax, and enjoy everything you watch on it.

What does it matter if there are some of us that weren't happy with it, like Lyris, myself, or gIzzE? I'd love to be able to spend ?800 on a television like that, and be completely happy with it, leaving me with ?1700 to spend on other things, but that's just not the case. I'm sure they feel the same.



It's the same with everything though - with audio you have people that buy a ?100 "home theater in a box" and love it because it's got thumping, boomy, bass. Heck, you have people that don't even do this, because they're happy with what their TV speakers provide.

You have people that buy seperates, or might spend 10 times that "just" on a 2.1 setup because they care about how realistic it sounds, and want to get as good as they can, to a point.

You then have people that spend tens of thousands, constantly upgrading to get the best sound reproduction possible.



It's the same with gaming, and perhaps more of you can relate to this. There are people who don't care about buying PAL games, and don't know that they can be paying twice as much for them because they're buying on the highstreet instead of importing online.

They don't know / care that a lot of them run 17% slower, or even try "60Hz" if it's available.

They'll make their purchasing decisions based on how the box looks.


Then you have people that import games and machines, keep up with what's the latest around, and what's good and what isn't.

You'll know that, for example, the PSP was out almost a whole year late over here, and the whole issue with Sony trying to "ban" importing them etc.


And you then have another step-up. You have people that import games from Japan, even if they don't know the language. Some may even learn it because of this. People buy arcade machines, and spend hundreds on systems like the neo-geo etc.



It's not like I wanted to spend ?2500 just to prove a point, or to be able to bad-mouth LCD. I spent ?2500 because I wanted the best there was available, and thought that would be good enough. There are clear limits to current LCD technology, and Philips seems to have just about reached them. Displays like the Samsung aren't that far behind - the Philips was in no way 3x better.



I probably will end up spending a few hundred on a decent CRT and waiting it out for the next generation of panels, or maybe newer technologies. They're not all bad - they can look great for DVDs and broadcast television. (well, as good as that can look with the quality of transmissions)

But for games, I really hate an interlaced display, and after playing X360 in 720p, the lower resolution is really noticeable.

I hate watching in 4:3 and seeing the edges distort, I hate the changing black level in relation to brightness onscreen etc.

More importantly though, whatever display I get will need, at the very least, component inputs, as I have upgraded most of my equipment when buying my Samsung LCD.



As much as I'd like to give it a try gIzzE, I just don't want to buy a Plasma and be worried about it whenever I use the thing. If they're so bulletproof now, why don't they cover it in the warranty? It's not that I'm doubting you, but that's an awful amount of money to spend on a display that I can kill just by enjoying games on it.



Something else for people wondering about why I'd spend so much, and not be happy with it. I have a 17" Powerbook that is almost a year old now. Not only that, but Apple aren't known for putting the latest panels in their displays. (although they do use good ones)

I've used a Spyder2PRO Studio to calibrate the display to D65 with a gamma of 2.2. It's not got a good viewing angle, an even moving maybe 5-10 degrees results in a noticeably different picture, unlike newer displays. However, once you're in that "sweet spot" it looks stunning.

The images here look incredible on the screen. I have actually bought some of the discs shown there, and on my Powerbook they look just as impressive as the stills. On the Philips, they came nowhere close, mainly due to being overprocessed, but also due to other deficiencies of the display.

If my Powerbook's "crappy" 17" LCD can display images this good, why can't a ?2500 television? If anything, I'd expect better. Being an older panel, it doesn't do so well with motion, but that doesn't bother me so much when everything else looks just right.

Blacks aren't perfect, but they are still better than any LCD television that I have seen.

The ironic thing is that I think it's actually a Philips panel inside my Powerbook.



Anyway, I've gone on far too much now, but I hope you can better understand why I'm like this now.

[Roost]

Jesus H, you don't like short posts do you

I understand why you and other people are like that and i wasn't trying to have a go at you or say you shouldn't be like that. I'm like the person you described that messes around and will notice a few things but isn't too fussed as i know i can't really get any better, unless i spend a fortune or get a different type of TV.

As i said before i wasn't having a go, i hope you do find a TV that you are happy with as your setup guides and reviews of the TV's you've used are so detailed and in depth there a great help. So if you find a TV that you are happy with everyone will know it's a stunner!

[yesteryeargames]

can i ask you what exacltly tearing is please?

i would also like to ask you if your tvs esspecially the samsung le26 ever has a flikery white line at the very top of the screen which only appears occasionally, usually when i just change the channel?

thanks again

[sj33]

[EDIT - just realised you were talking about a different kind of tearing, the little Samsung firmware bug]

[themanwithapc]

Nothing in this world is perfect. Technology is the perfect example of this. You can spend as much money as you want, but there will almost always be something wrong with the display/sound/setup etc. Even if you're happy with something, someone else is likely to not be so impressed by it.

You could always wait for the next generation of panels, but those are likely to bring their own problems and compromises. So essentially, just live with the moment, get a Panny Plasma like gIzzE said, calibrate it, and stop your whining

[Lyris]

Technology's not perfect - but what REALLY bums me and people like Andrew out is when there are faults and flaws in stupidly expensive displays that are the fault of human error. I mean - why leave out the option to adjust the backlight? If people don't need the option, they can ignore it. It makes it so damn frustrating for people like us when there's a display that's so good in many areas - but just falls short of justifying the price, because someone decided it would be a good idea just to leave an easily implemented option out.

can i ask you what exacltly tearing is please?

In relation to the Samsung TVs, I'm actually the one who named it this (because I'm the one who first found it) but apparently it's the wrong term. Anyway, that's when the top of the display refreshes before the area at the bottom. The area at the bottom shows the contents of frames from a few seconds before - part of the picture lags behind, which obviously looks very unnatural and weird.

[themanwithapc]

Technology's not perfect - but what REALLY bums me and people like Andrew out is when there are faults and flaws in stupidly expensive displays that are the fault of human error. I mean - why leave out the option to adjust the backlight? If people don't need the option, they can ignore it. It makes it so damn frustrating for people like us when there's a display that's so good in many areas - but just falls short of justifying the price, because someone decided it would be a good idea just to leave an easily implemented option out.

I'll agree to that. Backlight adjustment has proved to be an invaluable tool for me. Even more stupid, is that my model (Sharp GA6E) has adjustable backlight, yet the supposedly 'superior' GD7E does away with this option.

[MJ]

I set the TV up temporarily to test it and put the HD850 through it with HDMI. I put on a few scenes of Episode III in 720p and the picture didn't look as good as I expected at all, in fact I put it on my six year old Sony DVD player, with RGB, and CRT TV straight afterwards to compare and that looked much sharper.

I've heard they can take a little while to settle down and it will help when it's permanently set up, so I can adjust it in the environment it's going to be in.

I did expect more from a new HD Ready TV using a HDMI connection on a new DVD player compared to an old SD TV using RGB on an old DVD player though. Although I got the TV and DVD player at a great price compared to RRP, I hope I haven't wasted my money.

On a side note a few personal niggles with the HD850: the bright blue light around power button when off, would prefer this on when on; turn off Screen Messages to then have them back on after you turn the player off; no NTSC/PAL auto-swithcing.

I wonder if these, or at least the last two, could be fixed with a firmware upgrade?

[andrewfee]

I'll agree to that. Backlight adjustment has proved to be an invaluable tool for me. Even more stupid, is that my model (Sharp GA6E) has adjustable backlight, yet the supposedly 'superior' GD7E does away with this option.

Sharp have really lost it when it comes to their GD7E. It seems to be an exercise in cost-cutting and dumbing down the set.

Aside from the panel, the GD1E it replaces is a far better display.

On the GD1E you could adjust virtually everything about the set, now most of the advanced controls have been removed entirely (rather than being put into an "advanced" menu) and things like the backlight have been removed because they have a sensor for it.

The stand is not as adjustable as the old one, and the speakers can no longer be removed. (I'm not sure if they're still in an aluminium box either)

Everything is now on the back of the set, instead of having a "decoder" box, or whatever they call it. (the name escapes me right now)

It's a real disappointment, as I was considering the GD7E until I read about all this.

[themanwithapc]

Sharp have really lost it when it comes to their GD7E. It seems to be an exercise in cost-cutting and dumbing down the set.

Aside from the panel, the GD1E it replaces is a far better display.

On the GD1E you could adjust virtually everything about the set, now most of the advanced controls have been removed entirely (rather than being put into an "advanced" menu) and things like the backlight have been removed because they have a sensor for it.

The stand is not as adjustable as the old one, and the speakers can no longer be removed. (I'm not sure if they're still in an aluminium box either)

Everything is now on the back of the set, instead of having a "decoder" box, or whatever they call it. (the name escapes me right now)

It's a real disappointment, as I was considering the GD7E until I read about all this.

Yeah, I heard all this. I was really tempted to buy it due to the DVI connection, but I was really disappointed about the backlight adjustment, so settled on a GA6E.

The thing is, it's not just Sharp that do this. Sony have, very stupidly, removed VGA from their superior V Series, even though the S Series has the VGA socket. What the hell is going on? Surely more money=superior set=more functions?

[Lyris]

Andrew, didn't you ask Sharp about it and they said the backlight adjustment had been removed because it was "confusing" people? Really, really pisses me off... RTFM! And like you said, why not just hide it away rather than kill the option completely?

[andrewfee]

Yeah, this is the reason it was "dumbed down" they removed things like the backlight control, and colour decoder adjustments (adjusting R/G/B saturation individually) because it was too "confusing" for the average person.

What I don't get is why remove them altogether? They didn't get moved to an "advanced" section of the menus, or even the service menu. (as far as I'm aware)



I've just been having a look at the Sony US site, and it looks like they have the right TV for me.

34" CRT - HDMI, 2x Component, and loads of other inputs. Supports 480i/p, 720p and 1080i. (1080i native res)

Has a "pro" mode to disable all processing, and "warm" colour temperature is "NTSC standard." (so D65 / 6500k then) You can adjust SVM in the user menus! (including disabling it altogether) There is also a "colour axis" setting, which will let you choose between default and "monitor" - the latter of which removes the "red push" that most sets have.

There is also the option to have user settings applied to all inputs, or give each their own settings.



If only Sony Europe would bring out essentially the same set here, but replace some of the composite / s-video inputs (there are four) with an RGB SCART socket and add PAL progressive support.

It's $2000, and would be worth every penny. I'd probably pay up to ?1500 for a CRT like that if it was available.

I've been looking at CRTs, and it seems that none of the "big" manufacturers (Sony, Panasonic etc) have component inputs on their sets, and the ones they do have onsale have stupidly high prices - I think that's another reason CRTs are getting killed off over here.

[mid]

gIzzE - on an almost completely seperate note, I see you've got your plasma stuck above your radiator. Do you have any problems with doing that, or does it cope with the heat well? My brother-in-law would quite like a big flatscreen, but doesn't want to wallmount it like that if it's not going to like being hot.

[gIzzE]

That is just a cover with speaker frill cloth in the middle section with my centre speaker sitting on top of a Rel sub behind.
However you can mount above a fireplace as long as you have a mantle between them to guide the heat away, so a radiator would be no problem!