Final Fantasy XI Then...

[Marvelon]

Well that's learned for being optimistic about parties. Was (blindly) invited yesterday and the invite came from a red mage, so I accepted.
Party consists of: Ninja 20, Pld 23, Whm 22/thf, Whm 20/blm, Whm 23/nosub and the aforementioned rdm.

Didn't take long before I left that one.

Weirdest thing was, the first party I was in yesterday consisted of 'everyone who was available' according to our leader and that was one of the better parties I'd been in.

[Edit] Welcome Kona - any questions, you know where to find us.

[kona]

[Edit] Welcome Kona - any questions, you know where to find us.

Thanks!
And thanks to everyone who helped last night, especially Mahlory.
I think it's a great game, definitely the right choice to get this game now, even though so many people have played it to death and are starting to move on.

[Marvelon]

Just read an interesting technique on the Paladin forums over at Allakhazam.com.

Using Paladin and Ninja in the same team. When this has happened to me (twice so far) the Ninja would tank and I'm the one to voke it off when Utsu needs recasting. Not sure if it's better, but it appears to be a solid alternative:
The Paladin tanks and the ninja only uses his blinktanking while the paladin is resting. I would be able to use my full arsenal of spells one fight, then rest during the pull and the beginning of the next while the Ninja tanks. Then take over, not using all my spells, then rest during the pull and repeat the process.

[Edit] Dagnammit, did the same thing again - I think that might actually be what ninjablinktanking was intended for.

Heres the thread, the explanation the guy gives is better than mine:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.html?fjob=5&mid=1086733019360818081&num=3

[aegen]

Just read an interesting technique on the Paladin forums over at Allakhazam.com.

Using Paladin and Ninja in the same team. When this has happened to me (twice so far) the Ninja would tank and I'm the one to voke it off when Utsu needs recasting. Not sure if it's better, but it appears to be a solid alternative:
The Paladin tanks and the ninja only uses his blinktanking while the paladin is resting. I would be able to use my full arsenal of spells one fight, then rest during the pull and the beginning of the next while the Ninja tanks. Then take over, not using all my spells, then rest during the pull and repeat the process.

[Edit] Dagnammit, did the same thing again - I think that might actually be what ninjablinktanking was intended for.

Heres the thread, the explanation the guy gives is better than mine:
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.h...60818081&num=3

its true it is better to have a pld and nin in the same PT. but over time this technique becomes useless. the reason is that most PT would only need 1 tank as you go higher in lvls. people seems to forget that having two tanks in a pt would compromise more DMG dealing and quick victories which allows for xp chaining. at lower lvls you may get away with it, but after lvl 40 where most support classes like RDM and BRD(25 in brds case) have mp refresh, the need for an extra tank starts to disappear. backup tanks yes you need but if u have a tank like a PLD who can hold a mob to himself, the need for an extra tank is not required. a NIN tank is always at home in a PT with a THF for SA + TA purposes.

[C']

Sounds like a waste of a PT spot to me. Having 2 tanks in a PT is limiting your damage output potential as a whole.

Having another, well equipped, damage dealer would likely reduce the amount of time it takes to kill the mob, thereby reducing the amount of MP both you and the healer would need expend thus allowing the chains to build up anyway.

I agree that a NIN tank, pre 37, needs another PT member will to throw out a voke of their own to allow the Utsu to be recast but any well equipped melee (WAR is obviously preferable, but a DRK, DRG possibly even MNK) will be able to take one (at worst 2) hit before the NIN can provoke back again.

My feeling is you have either a PLD tank or a NIN tank. Having one of each is wasteful. Sorry ;_;

One thing I am getting sick of reading (and this is aimed at forums in general, not you specifically Mihki, so apologies) is Square?s ?intended purpose of Ninjas? and how they never intended them to be blinktanks.

So what?

I think it is a credit to the flexibility of the game system and the ingenuity of those dedicated, dare I say it, ?hardcore? players that they are able to find game qwirks and take advantage of them to improve their playing style.

I am reminded of Street Fighter 2 and the discovery of combos when thinking of blinktanking. The entire concept of cancelling animation frames and linking immediately into other moves via buffering of commands was not something that Capcom had any intention of when designing the game. Yet it was the dedication of players that quickly discovered such a thing was possible and the game benefited immensely because of it.

I feel Blinktanking is the same. The game now has a further class able to efficiently and effectively take the tank role in a party and many times I have seen parties disband before they?ve even begun simply because no tank was available. Why would anyone want to make this problem worse?

What is interesting that many of these people who spout ?tanking was not what Square intended with Ninja? always seem to fail to actually enlighten their readers as to what the intended purpose was.

Sorry for the vent. Sat at work suffering massive withdrawal symptoms ><

[Marvelon]

I agree with a lot of what you're saying there Rare (sorry I don't think of you as C' ^^)

It does limit the damage output, but as the thread on allakhazam suggests this was quite a high level party. A more traditional approach, using only one tank, is the better option, I agree. (if all applicable classes are up for grabs)
I don't think having two tanks is wasteful per se - not compared to standing around with half a party complaining that the only people looking are tanks.

Just thought I'd point this out as I thought it was a novel approach (which ties into your point about versatility, and using the tools you have)

I do believe Ninja's were not intended as a main tank but as a flexibel support character, they can do damage, I imagine if you go for lots of +STR equipment and purely for Damage food and hard hitting weapons you can be a damage dealer. You can be a tank, or backup tank.
Before the introduction of ninja's there we're two viable tanks: War and PLD, three classes were added later: SAM (damage dealer) DRG (Damage dealer, or healer - how many healing DRGs have you seen?) and Ninja (versatile, but option to blink tank) People quickly realised that it was viable and started using ninja as main tanks.

Reading that back it might have even been the case that SE gave ninjas the versatility so people could go whichever direction they liked with them. Meaning they weren't specifically designed around any purpose (that means people who say ninja weren't intended as tanks are correct, ironically)

[C']

Oh, my point made above was lacking somewhat. Yes, there is no doubt in my mind either that the Ninja being a main tank was not an intention (Square have already said as much in an interview). The thing that pisses me off is when the Anti-NIN Tank Brigade (usually NIN/THF who have a chip on their shoulder that they get viewer PT invites) keep trotting this argument as a reason why all NIN/WAR should stop tanking immediately.

Players have found it to work, and work well. Why should players stop playing in that style simply because it was not the original intention?

Going back to my Street Fighter analogy (I like Street Fighter ^^) it would be like holding a tournament then the organiser informing participants that they are not allowed to use any combos because ?Capcom never intended it back in 1990?.

A NIN with +AGI gear would actually be the best way to make a damage-dealing Ninja viable as the real damage in game (as I have discovered when recently levelling archery on my WAR) is from ranged attacks and with Ninjas that is shurikens which have a very, very nice damage/delay ratio (NIN AF also has some incredible stat boost for ranged attacks which is why I?m making a concerted effort to get my throwing skill as close to the cap ASAP). However, the cost of these makes this prohibitively expensive (makes the cost of blink-tanking look like pocket change). Equipping all STR+ would obviously make us more powerful but we would still fall behind the real damage dealers in game.

[Darwock]

Thanks!
And thanks to everyone who helped last night, especially Mahlory.
I think it's a great game, definitely the right choice to get this game now, even though so many people have played it to death and are starting to move on.

I don't know about that assumption... I've seen a hell of a lot more red question marks around Bastok in the last few days, there's still plenty of fresh blood!

Not to mention there is still the European release to come. I actually wonder how any Japanese players were able to progress in the early days, with all players at the same level there'd be nobody around to buy their rare items...

I've just reached lvl 17 BLM, is that anywhere close to being capable of joining a forum party?

[Marvelon]

A NIN with +AGI gear would actually be the best way to make a damage-dealing Ninja viable as the real damage in game (as I have discovered when recently levelling archery on my WAR) is from ranged attacks and with Ninjas that is shurikens which have a very, very nice damage/delay ratio (NIN AF also has some incredible stat boost for ranged attacks which is why I?m making a concerted effort to get my throwing skill as close to the cap ASAP). However, the cost of these makes this prohibitively expensive (makes the cost of blink-tanking look like pocket change). Equipping all STR+ would obviously make us more powerful but we would still fall behind the real damage dealers in game.

Oh man! Totally forgot about that! YEs, ninja can do massive ranged damage too. I think we're on the same wavelength Rare. It's just that I read the thread and it was something complete opposite from what I'd been doing/had thought of, which I thought was interesting.

Noticed today theres also a Ninja/RDM trend in motion - using ninjutsu to weaken a mob to a certain element, and then moving to use the En- of that particular element (meaning you basically get two en-charged wepaons)
Combine that with one Acid and one Poison Dagger and you've got 6 sources of damage from 2 weps and 1 spell O_O

[Bayan]

Ive Been Playing FFXI Since Easter, No High Lvl Jobs (30+) but I Have Levelled Almost Every Job [Except PLD, DRK, BRD and SMN] to Lvl 10-20
and have DRG, WHM and THF 25-30, I Only Joined Rargh Over A Week Ago As A Chance Encounter In A Korroloka Tunnel Party But In My Opinion I Like Ninjas As Blink Tanks:

I Have Been In 2 Parties In Dunes In The Last Week With 2 Ninjas, Between Lvl 15-18 Both With Utsusemi. The First Was Much Better Organised With Great Party Communication. Nin/war, Nin/war, Drg/thf (me), Sam,thf, Drk/war and Smn/whm, The Summoner Didnt Really Heal That Much As We Had 2 Blink Tanks And We Chained IT Snippers Up To Chain #5, Something You Dont Expect From Dunes , Of Course At Later Lvls or Against a Mob With a Powerful AoE a Party Structre Like This Wont Work, But 2 Blink Tanks Cant Be a Bad Thing.

And BTW Did Anyone See The Lvl 24 Taru Whm In Qufim, No Sub and Starting Equip *sigh* People Are Desperate For WHMs lol

[C']

Oh and Mihki, going back to your point you made at the top of the page about being optimistic about the groups, when I came back on last night I was completely the opposite. Got invited to a PT and early on I thought after a few minutes that we were doomed.

At first everything seemed to be ok. Setup seemed really nice in fact. MNK/WAR (leader), WAR/THF (myself), PLD/WAR, WAR/MNK, BRD/WHM and RDM/THF (main healer too with under-levelled sub). However as Mandys hit so softly the RDM seemed like an ok choice as main healer. However, it was one of those RDM who thought she was able to be main healer and melee. However with a BRD this was obviously not feasible (casting refresh on her would be impossible if she was in range of the melee who require completely different songs). The BRD tried to get this across (he was Rank 5 too) but on reflection whilst I agreed with what he was saying his approach was a touch aggressive and arrogant (although he was right).

The RDM was just as pigheaded and basically after a war of words, the BRD left.

Oh and in the middle of all this the leader asked if if I would tank. I was equipped with a Great Sword and we had a PLD. I quickly pointed this out.

This PT was going to be hell.

The leader soon finds a DRG replacement and I pull (good chance to gain those last few archery levels I needed) and remarkably the fight goes well. The tank holds hate, the DD do uber damage (myself included Great Sword + Berserk + Double Attack + high level Archery = awesome). Then the RDM decides she has to leave (after one fight).

With no healers looking a THF is invited with the idea that the PLD tank can heal himself. My heart sinks. I can?t believe what I am hearing. The PLD assures me that as we are fighting Mandys it?s possible. I am not so sure but as it is his life on the line agree to pull.

The fight goes well again.

I was wrong (*gasps of breath in the background*). Ok we weren?t chaining as the PLD had to heal MP after each fight but we were getting good EXP. After that things simply got better as the DRG had to leave and remarkably a WHM seeks at exactly the same moment. From then on we go from strength to strength and it was a fun PT.

The PLD was a great laugh (his name was Valmanway) held hate the majority of times and we exchanged some friendly banter when he learned I played NIN. A friendly tanking rivalry if you like ^^. In fact when he did lose hate once due to a remarkable (and accidental) skillchain he asked us not to do it again as he wouldn?t be leaving a good impression on the NIN/WAR.

Made me chuckle.

Just my personal experience on how good PTs can spring up out of seemingly doomed circumstances.

[C']

Oh, Bayan I completely forgot that. Despite my 2 Tank PTs negative post earlier, I forgot that I've actually been in, and enjoyed several 2 Tank parties as a NIN.

However, these were always 2 NIN tanks which is really good if you get 2 NIN who can work in perfect harmony with each other. I had two of these PTs on Qufim (both led by Halfpint) and my favourite PT ever which was in Garlaige Citadel. The reason being that you will suffer no downtime whatsoever. The WHM will have little healing to do and what little MP is used can easily be recouped whilst the puller obtains the next mob for the chain.

However, getting 2 NIN can be difficult at times so these experiences should be cherished ^^

[?pint]

I'm really getting bored with this game now. While levelling is alright, after an hour or two in a party things start to get boring, but because the amount of exp between levels is becoming a chasm it seems like there is so little progress. Making money for me isn't too much of a problem, there's nothing in the way of crafting that I want, or need, to level, and I'm not interested in levelling any other jobs. I feel like I'm at a dead end - I want to get higher level, but PT's demand so much time and often it's a complete waste.

[Marvelon]

I reckon about level 40 and up it becomes beneficial to form a static party.
You decide on two/three night a week that are dedicated to levelling, you meet up prepared and ready to roll (no "i need to swap equipment/have a look at my auctions/my foods gonna run out")
The rest of the time is yours. You can craft/level other jobs/do quests etc.

Bear with, lv 24 now, won't be long till i catch up (ish)

[mikewl]

I reckon about level 40 and up it becomes beneficial to form a static party.
You decide on two/three night a week that are dedicated to levelling, you meet up prepared and ready to roll (no "i need to swap equipment/have a look at my auctions/my foods gonna run out")
The rest of the time is yours. You can craft/level other jobs/do quests etc.

Bear with, lv 24 now, won't be long till i catch up (ish)

Agreed, maybe we should all agree to wait at a certain lvl and let others catch up so we can do this.