Steve Jobs Leaves Us

[Neon Ignition]

True, though anyone who is without hope if they are without religion has a life that is seriously lacking and so has greater issues than religion at work.

[Howiee]

True, though anyone who is without hope if they are without religion has a life that is seriously lacking and so has greater issues than religion at work.

I agree with you there, crazytaxinext, you don't necessarily need a belief in the transcendental to have hope (or be happy). But the literal existence of hope depends on what the truth is. By truth I mean the ultimate truth, whether that be a creator God or atheism.

If you take atheism to its highest philosophical degree, then life is utlimately meaningless, born of chaos and of no intrinsic value. Many people find that message hopeless.

[Brad]

I don't know much about religion really. I keep meaning to look into it. I mean, there's more than one religion so how do people pick one? Probably a discussion on its own and one we ought not to have here. Is there a good place to start for someone like me (I suppose I'm an atheist)?

[Colin]

All the real Gods play Gibson Les Pauls. Rock'n'roll is the one true religion.

[Brad]

My favourite guitar. Only ever owned a copy though :-(

[Howiee]

I don't think it's as simple as just picking one religion (or atheism) over another but, rather, settling on what you believe the ultimate truth to be. There can be only one truth, and there are lots of competing worldviews out there, so it's not an easy journey.

I'd start by asking lots of questions. A good worldview should give a coherent answer to the four big questions that weigh on the heart of everyone - origin, meaning, morality and destiny. That's how I arrived at Christianity. Rather than push that down your throat, though, I'd encourage you to compare and contrast all of the options with an open mind. For the genuine seeker, I believe, will find.

But yeah, this is not the thread for this discussion. A dedicated thread is a nice idea but, from experience, such discussions often descend into nastiness. I'm not sure we'd want that for our wee community!

[dataDave]

I keep meaning to look into it. I mean, there's more than one religion so how do people pick one?

Just do what I do and take all the best bits around to form your own.

I'd start by asking lots of questions. A good worldview should give a coherent answer to the four big questions that weigh on the heart of everyone - origin, meaning, morality and destiny.

I only worry about two of those, considering I don't believe in a past or a future.

[Charlie]

Just do what I do and take all the best bits around to form your own.



I only worry about two of those, considering I don't believe in a past or a future.

Indeed, there's great sense in taking the best bits from various religions and philosophies as I don't think any one person (or religion) has all the answers. And whenever someone has sought truth, be it religiously or spiritually or philosophically, they are worth listening to as they may have figured out things we ourselves haven't.

Totally agree with living in the moment too, the past has gone, the future never arrives. There is only present.

[Howiee]

Indeed, there's great sense in taking the best bits from various religions and philosophies as I don't think any one person (or religion) has all the answers. And whenever someone has sought truth, be it religiously or spiritually or philosophically, they are worth listening to as they may have figured out things we ourselves haven't.

Since all the religions and philosophies fundamentally disagree with one another, I personally don't find this a satisfactory solution. In order for a statement to be true it cannot illicit two contradictory answers, otherwise it violates the Law of Non-Contradiction. They can't all be true. If they are all true, then, by default, they would all be wrong since they all claim exclusivity. With that in mind, I believe there can be only one truth and since beliefs have consequences that affect us all, it's worth searching for it.

Totally agree with living in the moment too, the past has gone, the future never arrives. There is only present.

I used to think this. But then, how can we expect to find purpose and meaning if we don't know where we've come from or where we're going? What changed my thinking on this was when I heard it explained that the traditionalist looks to the past, the existentialist lives for moment, and the utopian lives for the future but Jesus, he kinda covered all those bases with the Last Supper - when communing with Him in the present, we remember what He did in the past, with hope for the future. I don't expect you to, but I found that rather profound.

[Stoppy2000]

I'm just glad god gave rock and roll to us.

[Charlie]

Since all the religions and philosophies fundamentally disagree with one another, I personally don't find this a satisfactory solution. In order for a statement to be true it cannot illicit two contradictory answers, otherwise it violates the Law of Non-Contradiction. They can't all be true. If they are all true, then, by default, they would all be wrong since they all claim exclusivity. With that in mind, I believe there can be only one truth and since beliefs have consequences that affect us all, it's worth searching for it.

I don't think all religions do disagree with eachother fundamentally, I think they disagree on the details more than anything, but have a great deal in common, especially in regards to explaining the human condition and how to achieve contentment in one's conduction. But then I always approach religion from a philosophical perspective and am far more interested in what Jesus and other prophets said about life on earth than I am about what they said about God and the afterlife. I tend to push the (and I mean absolutely no offence by this) what I consider the 'superstitious' or 'incredible' stuff aside and focus on the practical.

But I do understand your concerns about different philosophies and religions contradicting one another and the difficulties that seemingly places on mankind arriving at absolute truths. However I find opposites are often two sides of the same coin. Contradictions and paradoxes exist in nature; they seem illogical to us, I agree, but that's not to say they cannot reveal the truth, or at the very least get us a bit closer to the truth. Indeed, religions like Taoism and Buddhism never try and hide the fact their teachings are based on paradoxes and encourage people to explore and accept them.

I recommend reading the Tao Te Ching to see what I mean. It's very short, you can read it in a couple of hours, but will explain what I'm trying to say much better than I'm managing here.

I used to think this. But then, how can we expect to find purpose and meaning if we don't know where we've come from or where we're going? What changed my thinking on this was when I heard it explained that the traditionalist looks to the past, the existentialist lives for moment, and the utopian lives for the future but Jesus, he kinda covered all those bases with the Last Supper - when communing with Him in the present, we remember what He did in the past, with hope for the future. I don't expect you to, but I found that rather profound.

I believe looking to the past or to the future can only serve to impede our happiness. Nature (or God in your eyes) has provided us with everything we need to enjoy life. I don't like to believe life will be better in 10 minutes time, or an hours time, or in a week from now, or that life is better 50 miles away, or a new job away, or a new car away. I believe in living in the moment. In loving the moment. There is only now. Looking to anything else betrays the moment and therefore betrays our life, because life is a string of moments all lived in the present.

Interesting take on communion you have there though, I've never looked at it like that before. I always enjoy reading your posts, Howiee. You come across as a real Christian, and by that I mean you seem deeply faithful to your religion and it's beliefs yet remain tolerant of other peoples different beliefs. Nietzche may have said there was only one real Chrisitan and he died on the cross, and maybe he was right, but you seem pretty close to what I think of as Christian.

[egparadigm]

The whole heaven/hell thing doesn't make any sense when you drill down into it. I mean, what if you pick the wrong denomination? It's like at the end of that episode of South Park where God appears to save the divine and the townspeople ask "What was the correct faith?"

->Open Spoiler<-

"Mormonism"

comes the reply.

Or what if you're so disabled that you're incapable of comprehending the meaning of life, and unable to repent? I think the historical answer is that you enter limbo, but that doesn't seem very fair now, does it?

[endo]

I wonder what Steve Jobs is doing right now? In his Buddhist non-heaven?

the traditionalist looks to the past, the existentialist lives for moment, and the utopian lives for the future

Yeah, the utopian (or dystopian, shirley?) and Mystic Meg and Russell Grant. As for Jesus, if you don't believe there's a god then he can't have been god's son so he was just some bloke.

So anyway, Steve Jobs...

Actually, just to deviate a bit more, a monk stopped me on my lunch the other day - there was a few of them and I tried to dodge eye contact, as I always do with chuggers - and gave me a spiel about his life and his monastery. This Hare Krishna place, here in fact:

http://www.bhaktivedantamanor.co.uk/home/

Sounded really good to be honest. A big manor in the country paid for by George Harrison. When he was into acid. Sweet deal. It would be nice to be able to live in a place like that.

Re: the four big questions that weigh on the heart of everyone. I don't agree that they weigh on the heart of everyone. In fact, I know several people on whose hearts these questions have never weighed. It's OK to say 'I don't know'. After all, no one does. Not even the church- they've got ideas like everyone else. It's just that some ideas are more verifiable than others.

Anway, RIP* Steve

*yeah, I know

[Stoppy2000]

The ridiculous idea of any religion can be summed up by the fact that scientology exists as a viable religion. And is actually no more ridiculous or based on made up nonsense than any other religion.

[Charlie]

I bet you believe and trust your senses though, Stoppy? You believe in them despite the knowledge they merely provide you with an incomplete interpretation of reality. With that in mind I don't think it is ridiculous if one turns to their instinct, their heart and their mind to try and discover what lies beyond. Sometimes the truth is evident only to our hearts and souls. Least I think so anyway.