UFOs exist, or do they?

[MartyG]

He'd have whistleblower protection.

[Asura]

The threat of prosecution through governmental or industrial theft.

If I had actual evidence that aliens had visited Earth, in the manner of artefacts I could show in front of a public government body, no threat of persecution could stop me. You'd be spoken of in similar sentences to those featuring Einstein, Armstrong, Gagarin, hell, Caesar

You'd fundamentally change the course of human history.

[prinnysquad]

Do we know the background and wind up to these proceedings? Is that a fact? People like Snowdon and McKinnon have been pursued for far less.

[MartyG]

The government isn't pursuing Grusch as far as I know, despite leaking classified information (well, were it accurate). Aside from the alien bodies that are being widely reported in the newspapers, Grusch is also claiming that the government is murdering people to keep it quiet.

[prinnysquad]

So presumption and guesswork is ok in certain circumstances.

It seems that some people have this reaction:
Another high-ranking person coming forward with claims? Do they have physical proof —> no? —> liar/crank.

There are so many things to consider with any whistleblower. Motive, background, consistency, etc. But defaulting to ‘liar’ on one limiting judgement doesn’t seem helpful to me. It’s got to be part of a wider analysis.

I would like to think that I’d react like Asura, but I really wouldn’t know. I don’t know what pressures would be placed on me.

[MartyG]

I'm pretty sure most of us have posted that we think Grusch has convinced himself it's real, hence my use of the word Patsy, not liar. I'm not the one claiming the government is murdering people and hoarding alien bodies - the burden of proof is not on me - it's on Grusch to back up his claims.

[prinnysquad]

There’s been an awful lot of high-ranking patsies over recent years.

[MartyG]

And yet after all these decades, the best we've gotten from them is the government is keeping secrets.

[prinnysquad]

What else to say? Physical proof? The circle joins.

[MartyG]

Yes, such a claim requires proof.

[prinnysquad]

Which may not be forthcoming without prosecution or a target painted on their back.

[MartyG]

Then we can claim the government is up to anything we can imagine and want to start a conspiracy theory about, fitting whatever beliefs we want if that's the case.

Grusch is making extraordinary claims - global conspiracies, alien bodies and crafts, the Vatican is in on it, murdering people that try to expose it and have been doing it for decades. It's not something I would ever take, simply on somebody's word based on third-party information - it would be completely illogical to do so.

[Asura]

Which may not be forthcoming without prosecution or a target painted on their back.

The problem is more that if this is "a perfect circle", it requires that the government, tons of people - perhaps even governments that have fallen and leaked their secrets like the Soviet Union - have all collectively kept this secret. Countless people over decades.

I think those of us who are really critical about this stuff are mainly focusing on that side of it. I just don't believe they could keep that secret.

[prinnysquad]

No, we can’t. That is a straw man argument. This involves a lot of people saying that there is ‘something’ amiss. Professional people who are testifying before Senate hearings. Not internet crusaders making stuff up to fit an ideological or political agenda. These are people with a lot of respect (and whatever financial implications) to lose, should they all be liars or deluded. People putting their reputations on the line, in public, with the fallout from that. That seems like a very strange hill to die on.

I will always demand the holy grail of physical proof as the final decider. However, for now, all of the claims coming out of high-level government, military and industrial sectors are compelling enough for me to entertain the possibility that there may be some truth in it. They maybe haven’t provided proof for understandable reasons, and I don’t find covering my ears and repeating the mantra of ‘no physical evidence, no dice’ particularly helpful. I don’t find it a useful response.

[Neon Ignition]

"Turns out that stationary object wasn't an alien space ship after all"

"Then what was it?"



"Grit on the camera"