America & the World V: DOGE Business

[Neon Ignition]

And (4) I don't want to visit there


It's says everything that we went through four of these threads across some of Trumps first term and in the past four years have barely covered one thread

[fishbowlhead]

This is the start of concentration camps.

I watched Civil War last month, its looking more prophetic by the minute.

[wakka]

I've been to China and know loads of people from there and Brits who've moved there. I've also visited and had an awesome time. It's a safe, prosperous country. The CCP does a lot I don't agree with whatsoever, just like the US and UK governments do. Western media propagandises against China extremely heavily so we only ever get a one-sided view. Just try finding an article about something good the Chinese government has done (build a ****load of high speed railways for example) without the inevitable suffix '...but at what cost?'.

I'd rather live under CCP rule than a fully realised Project 2025 theocracy.

[Baseley09]

Yeah agree with that one if my best pals has lived in China mainly since 2005 and he's never given too much bad feedback, sure lots of beurocracy issues especially problematic when it's come to his passports etc, but some of the cities and services they have are so futuristic compared to what we and the Americans have.

I think America is going to pull itself out of a hole but for sure lots of peoples noses out if joint.

[Neon Ignition]

I feel like Trump has pulled this stuff too early. He's come racing out the gate with everything instead of waiting a year or two and so will still be President when reality crashes in on people.

Over the course of Year 1 and 2 of his term there's going to be so much disruption, gutting of sectors and chaos that it will appear that loads is being done and changed. But then as the 'new normal' settles in and it becomes a deafening unavoidable reality for people that Americans are dying at a higher rate, their friends and relatives are much worse off and (whilst he will have consolidated his own fortune and escape from justice) the US economy will take damage that will take an age to reverse because all these plans are solely to benefit the 3-5 billionaire's in the room.

His strong tariff stance is pure sideshow shtick that doesn't reflect reality at all and relies on the publics lack of understanding of how tariff's work. It's all just an extreme version of the same nonsense the UK parties can't shake themselves out of. Government's can't advance their social and ecomonic situations by treating everything like it's the 1980's instead of the 2020's. You can't reverse globalisation and any nation pursuing a serious attempt is cementing its own downfall. It geniunely won't matter who wins in 2028, there will be nothign of value left to oversee

[egparadigm]

I honestly don't know with all this. I saw a ton of stuff about this since ~2018, talking about "social credit scores" and the like, or people talking about how people in China don't know about the Tianamen massacre. But I've spoken to people from China about this stuff, and people who are from the UK/US who worked in China for long periods, and they said these stories are really overblown, and that everyone in China knows about Tianamen (even if they can't talk about it online) and the "social credit" thing is only used for government-tied businesses, not individual people.

But on the other hand, I've heard stories from Chinese students, or Non-Chinese students living in halls with numerous Chinese students, who talk about "Uncles" - where they've come back to their halls' common area to find random, middle-aged Chinese men, who claim to be "someone's visiting uncle", but, in the stories, these are people paid by the CCP to "gently" remind those Chinese students that, even in the UK, they are not beyond the sight of the CCP.

I'm very much in a point with China that I know that (1) I've never been there, (2) I don't really know how things are there and (3) I don't know who to believe.

I would recommend you watch the documentary.

In terms of people living comfortably in China, they should try speaking out against government policy and see how long their comfortable lives last. The extent of social monitoring means it won’t be long before the authorities find out (especially in cities). If I recall correctly one of the people in the doc is identified by microphones on public transport.

Things are bad in China and there are also bad things that happen in the west, the two are not mutually exclusive. Unfortunately so many people’s views are filtered through trans-national alliances.

On a slightly related subject, there’s also a Storyville doc about life in North Korea and refugees trying to flee (frustrated by the Chinese authorities, if discovered). The people there literally live in a pig sty and being forced to

->Open Spoiler<-

collect their own faeces

. (Spoilered for those with a sensitive disposition.)

[Asura]

In terms of people living comfortably in China, they should try speaking out against government policy and see how long their comfortable lives last. The extent of social monitoring means it won’t be long before the authorities find out (especially in cities). If I recall correctly one of the people in the doc is identified by microphones on public transport.

But I mean, how different is this to the UK or US? Certainly you can phrase it to sound like it's a draconian state that controls its people with an iron fist...

... but isn't the UK supposedly the country with the most CCTV and citizen-surveillance in the world?

While I can certainly criticise the UK government here in the UK, argue about its policies, talk about how I disagree with Kier Starmer, but that's all quite civil. But surely we can all agree there are definitely things a person could say, in public places, in a public context online or even over the telephone that would almost certainly result in a visit from the police, and possibly an arrest, and yeah, China "vanishes" supposed dissidents but are we certain there's no UK secret equivalent of Guantanamo?

Hell, there's all sorts going on, I don't feel I'm terribly tinfoil-hat but take the death of David Kelly, or the whole Novichok agent thing, or when the sea-front of that pier town was evacuated a couple of years ago due to a supposed chemical disaster. I'm not implying these things are connected (that's the tinfoil bit!) but there's a lot going on that the average citizen never knows.

Now, this is all relative. I'm not saying "the UK is just as bad" because I don't seriously believe that. I recall a while back something about a Chinese pro Tennis player who said something negative about a party official and literally went missing for a duration, after which (IIRC) they came back all positive about China. This is all known. But then the World Tennis Authority didn't cancel their events? So you can understand why I, someone so detached from all this, views the whole thing with a grain of confusion.

[Neon Ignition]

I think the same scale of things in the UK would require far more competence from our politicians than they've demonstrated they're capable of

[egparadigm]

As I say, the documentary is eye opening in terms of the consequences for people expressing political opinions (or merely asking for what they’re entitled to). There’s no real comparison with the UK where people’s rights are largely upheld (despite the last govt’s attempts to frustrate and constrain them).

[wakka]

In terms of people living comfortably in China, they should try speaking out against government policy and see how long their comfortable lives last. The extent of social monitoring means it won’t be long before the authorities find out (especially in cities). If I recall correctly one of the people in the doc is identified by microphones on public transport.

It's very bad, no doubt. I'm not intending to minimise it.

[Golgo]

As I say, the documentary is eye opening in terms of the consequences for people expressing political opinions (or merely asking for what they’re entitled to). There’s no real comparison with the UK where people’s rights are largely upheld (despite the last govt’s attempts to frustrate and constrain them).

Indeed, and the reach/effectiveness of it is frightening. I work with Chinese colleagues at university, and one in particular is absolutely paranoid about saying anything in front of another whom he knows to be a CCP stooge, fearful he will shop him to the authorities and get him picked up at the airport back home if he says anything awry. It's shocking: he will usually just clam up and not speak at all within earshot of this other guy.

[Golgo]

... but isn't the UK supposedly the country with the most CCTV and citizen-surveillance in the world?

I think we have lots and lots of cameras that don't work or which - when they do - are fed to a booth somewhere to be logged on a Commodore PET.

[MartyG]

The UK has considered introducing legislation to stiffle political speech in the UK, which would have had a similar outcome, making them terrorists and giving authorities the excuse to "disappear" them: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2qv7425gvwo - we absolutely use facial recognition all the time to track people (so that data from CCTV is being logged somewhere), even just casually: https://homeofficemedia.blog.gov.uk/...ion-factsheet/ add to that tracking from mobile data - if the state wants to know where you are in the UK, it isn't going to have much trouble working that out.

Not saying the two things are the same, just that there is a lot of anti-China propaganda - no doubt the people in the documentary were treated badly (Storyville has a good reputation, and a good example of why we don't want the BBC to be defunded), but we're not going to hear about the people who have spoken out and not been disappeared (the state isn't arresting everyone posting Pooh pictures for example), the bad things tend to be more amplified than the good.

Plenty of people holiday in China, it's a perfectly safe place for tourists to visit.

[Neon Ignition]

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2025/jan/30/plane-crashes-near-washington-dc-after-mid-air-collision-with-military-helicopter-follow-live

Bodies are literally still in the water and yet Trump blames Obama, Biden and Diversity hires for the crash whilst citing his own genius and helicopter ownership as the solution.

"Surely you can't be serious?"

"I am serious, and don't call me a human **** stain"

[MartyG]

Well it happened at night, so the sky was black. Proof.