England Team Thread

[prinnysquad]

They would also lose 8-0

Blaming players for a lack of passion is rubbish. It's the manager's job to install this passion. When players have been on a 6 hour flight, have had a week of back pages saying how rubbish they are, you feel like crap, they don't think "hey I'm getting XXX thousands this week" and get burning with passion. When you're in front of 60,000 fans supporting the opposition and maybe a few thousand supporting you, it can be tough.

The manager is the one who has to make players put all this to the side and make them thirst for the football.

Horse!

Here's a good reason to play with passion: you're playing for the English National Team in a must-win game. If these players can't get psyched up enough for this situation, then they should be booted. If they can't bust a gut to get to a major tournament, they're not fit to wear the shirt. There's far too many superstars in that team who have been failing to turn up during the majority of the qualifying campaign. They're at fault for the scandalous situation they found themselves in, then failed to rise to the occasion in Moscow when it was needed most. I can't remember many back pages saying how rubbish they are after the last few results.

As for this 6 hour flight rubbish - what a joke! It's not like they stepped off the plane and onto the pitch. That's the ultimate cop-out excuse, it shouldn't even factor into the reasons for failure, never mind be a valid one.

In the NHL a couple of years ago I remember the Philadelphia Flyers embarked on an 11 game road trip over just 25 days. They travelled thousands and thousands of miles by plane and by coach over the Christmas period, with miniscule preparation and adjustment time between each game. Those guys might have been excused for feeling a teeny bit demotivated at some stage, maybe lacking a bit of passion in these regular season games.

A bunch of skanks travelling on a 6 hour flight to play in a winner-takes-all game, with national and personal pride at stake, could surely put in the performances we know they can regularly put in at club level.

of course if you're satisfied that they played with passion in Moscow, or had good reasons not to, then I hope you enjoy watching the tournament through the eyes of a neutral.

[vanpeebles]

That part is accurate though.

What like how England put 8 past Macedonia?

[davesol]

could surely put in the performances we know they can regularly put in at club level.

Regualarly yes, but not every single week without fail. England have won their previous 5 matches 3-0 so does 5 good performances out of 6 not count as regular? The reaction to this defeat is so typically OTT whenever England fail to trounce the opposition.

Chances are, Russia will draw or lose in Israel; England will turn in a good performance against Croatia and win and when we are in the Euros, no-one will remember or care how we qualified.

[vanpeebles]

Regualarly yes, but not every single week without fail. England have won their previous 5 matches 3-0 so does 5 good performances out of 6 not count as regular?

Were they good performances or good results?

[davesol]

Were they good performances or good results?

In the main, good performances. Ultimately though, most people only care about results. England played quite well I thought for 65 mins vs Russia, but because we lost the team is getting slated.

[prinnysquad]

Regualarly yes, but not every single week without fail. England have won their previous 5 matches 3-0 so does 5 good performances out of 6 not count as regular? The reaction to this defeat is so typically OTT whenever England fail to trounce the opposition.

Chances are, Russia will draw or lose in Israel; England will turn in a good performance against Croatia and win and when we are in the Euros, no-one will remember or care how we qualified.

excuse me? They failed to BEAT the opposition, not trounce. This russia match was the one that really mattered. You'd always have a good chance against crap like estonia and even russia at home, but everyone knew that qualification would hinge on an away victory against the main threat to qualification. They blew it. Add to that the rotten results from earlier and I would say that in a poor group they haven't put in enough regularly good performances to qualify. It's not about 5 out of 6. It's about 7 out of 11. Rubbish in this group. If russia beat israel, we may get through. But in a group of this calibre we should have walked it. I believe Gerrard has said much the same. Even the players aren't pulling the same apologist crap that some people on here are.

When the rugby lot got hammered against the Sud Afrikans they didn't cry into their newspapers. The squad rallied and used it to inspire themselves, to prove the media wrong. If the football lot have been slagged off in the press, what a shame that they couldn't do the same.

[prinnysquad]

In the main, good performances. Ultimately though, most people only care about results. England played quite well I thought for 65 mins vs Russia, but because we lost the team is getting slated.

that's right. we can drool over that 65 minutes from our armchairs while we're watching other teams next year.

[Plough Boy]

We got exactly what we deserved.

In all every International Tournament the commentators always come up with the same old 'Spain are the most underperforming team in the world'.

Sorry - It's England. The majority of players now earn so much money that they think they're invincible - that they can do what they want, when they want and how they want. They have become lazy and apathetic to wearing the England shirt. What do they care? - they don't quallify - well they can lord it up in their 3 million foreign villa for the summer instead, being waited on hand and foot.

The alternative to not making the finals is hardly all that bad is it.

The fact is though that this group of players should be tearing up trees.
3-0 against Estonia flattered to deceive - they beat themselves - we didn't beat them. And when it really counts - when everything is on the line and your 1-0 up knowing that at worst a draw should see you good - there's no excuse.

McClaren isn't the man for the job - he never has been - another so called great manager who became famous off the back of Alex Ferguson's name - like Kidd before him - crap.

Who is the right man - no idea. But you should NEVER need to be motivated to play for England. That's your job as a player not the managers.

[davesol]

that's right. we can drool over that 65 minutes from our armchairs while we're watching other teams next year.

My point was that the performances are irrelevant and that it is the result that matters. Suppose in this game that the penalty had not been given, and that Gerrard and Ricahrds had scored their good chances. Other than that the 'performance' would have been the same, but because we would have won 3-1 everyone would be saying what a great performance it was. Those moments in the game were nothing to do with the teams performance, they were individual mistakes and they happen week in, week out in the premiership.

I agree that England have underachieved in this group - we are ranked 9th in the world compared to 10th for Croatia and 26th for Russia, but football isn't that simple. Anyway, let's see what happens in the final round of games.

[prinnysquad]

I'll put it this way then:

We got beat and the performance was hopeless from a team of superstars who treated it as a 'must win'. Russia are poor and were there for the taking. Individual mistakes or not, where was the team's drive and ambition? Shut up shop and hump the ball from deep. Lots of quality there! Then panic like headless chickens when the inevitible happened. It was a poor performance in the context of the game. That's the only watermark it can be judged from - not ifs and buts, but what actually happened.

For the record, I've said on here before that the good performances I've seen, irrespective of results, have been very few in recent years. We've rode the 'it's the result that matters' wave for ages now. Time to perish on that little dictum.

[davesol]

And when England do play well AND get a good result, people still moan and say "well, it was only against a weak team". They can't win - How are the players supposed to be motivated? If you think the players should automatically be motivated because they are representing their country, then equally, you should automatically support them becase they are representing your country. Would you be motivated if you went into work every day and constantly got told how **** you were?

We've rode the 'it's the result that matters' wave for ages now. Time to perish on that little dictum.

I agree, but it's not going to happen. Newspapers are not going to start praising the team after a good performance but a bad result. Nothing in the international game (in England) is set up for long term success. As soon as England lose a couple of games people start calling for the manager to be sacked. If we want long term success then IMO we need to accept short term failure (e.g. not qualifying for a tournament) as long as there is some sort of plan in place for bringing young players through and giving them experience but no-one is prepared to accept that in this country.

[abigsmurf]

Horse!

A bunch of skanks travelling on a 6 hour flight to play in a winner-takes-all game, with national and personal pride at stake, could surely put in the performances we know they can regularly put in at club level.

At club level these players have/had quality managers like Mourinou, benetez and Ferguson to get them motivate. Do you think players are more likely to be buzzed for a big international or for a mid season away game to a bottom of the league club?

You only have to look at Chelsea recently to see the difference in morale between managers (great champions league win aside). A good manager commands dedication and top performances from top players, a mediocre manager asks for "just good enough".

There are clear flaws in the squad, Gerrard is being given the chance to command the mid field despite poor performances, Joe Cole was playing well out of position but he shouldn't be playing there, SWP is a poor crosser of the ball. The first step in having confident, strong performances is to get players feeling like they're able to play to their strengths. Players don't want to hear "oh I'll play you here so player XYZ can play there", they want to hear "you can play here because your fast movement will get around their midfield and you'll be able to set up chances".

[Plough Boy]

If you think the players should automatically be motivated because they are representing their country, then equally, you should automatically support them becase they are representing your country. Would you be motivated if you went into work every day and constantly got told how **** you were?

I do automatically support them - that's what makes it so frustrating.

And surely they actually 'go to work' for England only a couple of times a month?

[Montaver]

It has taken a few days to get over the shock of such a horrific result but I have come to a few conclusions.

Firstly, we are never going to win anything with McLaren. The guy threw on four strikers and scraped through two UEFA cup games, won a few trophies and that makes him qualified? No, we need the Scolari's, the Klinnsmanns the Mourinho's. His only saving grace was serving under the much maligned Sven. As much as I hate to say it, Sven was an overachiever with England. You need only to look at our cripplingly poor results (in many cases with practically the same lineup), and what he has done with foreign talent at Man City to see there was something far more deeply troubling with the English game which he effeciently, if unspectacularly surpressed but did not remedy. How then can a decent, but mostly uninspired coach like McLaren have a chance of success?

The game in Russia CLEARLY called for a change of strategy, the midfield setup was wrong. Barry and a distinctly average looking Gerrard were swamped. Gerrard despite all his talents is neither the creative dynamo or positional genious of someone like Zidane, hence our defence sitting deep constantly clearing the lines with no where to go. Its not helped by SWP's glaringly inconsistent passing (theres a reason he was never played at Chelsea..) and the fact Joe Cole is seemingly the only english player with sufficient flare to run at players (another problem with the english game stifled at junior level). The penalty despite being a joke, what was Rooney doing there in the first place? Hiddink played it right, McClaren got it completely wrong when it mattered most.

As for the whole Lampard debate, I must admit I have never been a fan of his, but its and undeniable fact he scores goals. I cant be bothered to type out the reasons for his recent performance failings, serve to say I think he deserves another chance ahead of Gerrard who has had his shot at running things and ended it dismally.

[prinnysquad]

If you think the players should automatically be motivated because they are representing their country, then equally, you should automatically support them becase they are representing your country. Would you be motivated if you went into work every day and constantly got told how **** you were?

I support england, if the players aren't up to scratch I'm not going to blindly support them. The duty of a fan covers criticism as well as support. As PB says, it was hardly a regular day at the office.

At club level these players have/had quality managers like Mourinou, benetez and Ferguson to get them motivate. Do you think players are more likely to be buzzed for a big international or for a mid season away game to a bottom of the league club?

You only have to look at Chelsea recently to see the difference in morale between managers (great champions league win aside). A good manager commands dedication and top performances from top players, a mediocre manager asks for "just good enough".

I hate steve mac as a manager and I lay a lot of blame with him. But i still think these players must assume a lot of the blame too. Theyre not programmable vessels waiting to be inspired. Theyre pro athletes at the supposed pinnacle of heir game, with a well respected international stage awaiting them. It should be up to them to motivate themselves and play with passion first and foremost, and the manager second.