Left 4 Dead

[Paulos G]

THIS IS THE BESTEST GAME EVA!!!!111!!!11!!

Yesterday I got to shoot Jimmbob, pounce on Hair Net and Barf on Brats!

Game Of The Millennium right here people!!

[Malavon]

Time to lighten the mood...

(sorry if it's been posted)

[Brats]

I'm not the kind to jump to grandiose statements

Oh no?

It's magical. This is truly "next gen" in every way - and I don't say that lightly, even though it's a bold statement after only the first 3 levels! But right now, it eclipses everything I've played in a long time in one important way - it's fun.

I can see myself playing this for a long, long time. How can you get bored when there's this much to play with?

within a few months of launch, the real talent will emerge, they'll be less crap to flood the system, and we'll see some truly innovative maps.

Of course it's about LBP. I'm not saying you were wrong to state this, but you wrote the game is 'truly next gen in every way', does this not break your own point that 'such a statement can't be justified after a week'? You said it after 30 minutes!

See, you used your judgement. What's so wrong in that?

[charlesr]

Is this going to turn into a quotefestwar?

Anyway, I played the demo and thought it was jolly good fun (but then went back to Mirror's Edge). I love the way it's just pure arcadeness. I could see people paying by the nugget to play this in an arcade (if that sort of thing still exists....)

[Matt]

I'll let it go soon Charles. But not just yet if that's OK with you. I do laugh when someone has enough time on their hands to go through my old posts in a futile internet argument.

Oh no?

Of course it's about LBP. I'm not saying you were wrong to state this, but you wrote the game is 'truly next gen in every way', does this not break your own point that 'such a statement can't be justified after a week'? You said it after 30 minutes!

See, you used your judgement. What's so wrong in that?

Well, I can see where you're coming from with your quotes, but....

"Next gen in every way". Well yes. Presentation, control, physics, graphics, sound; more than that, the amount of love that's gone in to the game shows - a 20 man team producing something with that level of care, attention to detail and production values. It shone after 30 minutes. I'd seen some amazing graphics, great animation, and a very versatile physics system after 30 mins. More importantly, it was fun! It had me realsing how dour most recent games are. I will concede "EVERY" may have been a poor word, but at that stage, everything I'd seen was screaming, "We're taking games to the next level". Ironically, the "Next Gen" appeal was by tarting up an older gen (SNES) style game and doing it in a way only the latest consoles can. [note to self, stop calling current consoles Next Gen].

Plus I was smart enough to qualify my statement, saying I'd only played 3 levels, but everything I'd seen so far had blown me away.

Which means that statement is HUGELY different to me proclaiming, "GOTY". Even now after a month or so playing it, it's still too early for me. Personally I don't think GOTY polls should be run until the end of the following year, when the hype has died down and everyone has more critical distance.

I believe the argument has changed to when it's valid to make grandiose statements, has it not?

To be clear, I don't have a problem with people saying, "This could be GOTY" as that's a valid statement.

Back to longevity....

LBP is a very different proposition to 360 L4D. Why? Because it can be anything you want it to be. User levels ASSURE longevity - variety is the spice of life. Whether or not the levels or the game is any good is a different discussion, but LBP will have new content, for free, for years.

Plus as a creative individual, the tools it offers appeal to me.

L4D 360 has 4 scenarios doing the same thing. Shooting zombies. As I've said at least once, that is bound to be great fun. You may not know, but I'm actually working on a zombie movie, so needless to say, I appreciate the genre. Regardless of how much fun it is, I truly believe 4 scenarios is not enough. It doesn't matter how great something is, if you play it over and over you will get bored (well, I'd imagine everyone would). More scenarios would help, and would sell me on this game. As I've said probably numerous times, the PC represents far better value at half the price, and free unlimited maps and mods in the future - which right there, if you had that version, would make your "longevity assured" statement at least have some resonance rather than sounding like re-working marketing spiel. I know I'm not the only one concerned about the limited number of levels.

As an aside, there was speculation and talk from Valve, if only dismissively, that L4D would appear as Orange Box 2 with the Portal expansion and Episode 3. Instead we've got the Portal maps as a full price 1200 point Live title, and now L4D as a full retail product. Great games all round, but after OB, I can't help but feel these are overpriced.

Portal is a good game to bring up in this discussion. I think Portal is AWESOME. Seriously, one of the most enjoyable games I've played, can't rate it highly enough. However, if that was a full retail version I'd feel ripped off.

Maybe how I'm feeling is Valve's fault for making OB such a great value proposition. Maybe I'm not too happy that MS will make Valve charge for the map packs that PC users will get for free. I'm not one to bend over and take it

It comes down to perceived valued. Again, as I've said, coop enhances any game. But still, you'll be running through the same 4 scenarios over and over, and regardless of how adaptive the Director is, I think I'd get bored of the same scenarios and scenery.

Another area of concern I have is the variety in the game. Having only seen vids, I can only base it on that. But to me, it looks like constantly shooting zombies with little variety. Yes, most FPS games can probably be wittled down to such a statement. But most shooters offer variety through the levels and mix things up a lot. Wave after wave of zombies, while exhillirating, isn't the same.

I believe I posted way back when this game was announced the appeal of modding the game [PC of course] to something more tactical. As a fan of fast paced shooters, it's odd me saying that, but I'd like to have a Rainbow 6 style version of this - a proper cover mechanic, much slower play pace, and proper lumbering zombies.

[Brats]

Chain, it took me two minutes to find your statements on LBP. Hell, you really don't have to justify them to me at all. I get it, I really do. But do you seriously expect anyone to agree that posting "it eclipses everything I've played in a long time..." is "HUGELY different to me proclaiming GOTY". Really? Really?

And if I'd said 'this games longevity could be assured, you'd have been okay with that? Whaaaaaat??? Have we really got to this ludicrous level of semantics?

But leaving all that nonsense to one side, your point about doing the same thing in L4D (shooting zombies) seems really bizarre to me. There are loads of great games that revolve purely around a simple mechanic but have longevity. I'm sure you could list loads on your own.

But L4D is more than that anyway: it's about trying to second guess the AI Director (or other players), it's about working as a team, it's about timing the use of special items, it's about using environmental objects, it's about positioning to avoid getting caught in the crossfire; it's about stealthily sneaking past a witch, it's about saving your teammates, sharing items, sacrificing yourself for others, avoiding reloaded at the same time and using the environment to create bottlenecks.

And that's just playing as the humans.

Reading your posts again (especially the last one) it's clear that by watching videos, you haven't 'got' what L4D is about. It's a very tactical game. One day you might finally get to play it and appreciate that.

[Matt]

Don't worry man, I WILL get it. Not sure on the format, or when, but I will get it. I like Valve, as I've said they really polish their titles. They're one of the premier devs around, and I end up playing pretty much everything they have a hand in. Valve are a company I'd actually support by buying their products - they've a great rapport with their community, and I appreciate that.

I've had OB on both 360 and PC, and I never re-buy titles! Saying that, I actually bought Half Life twice when a mate started talking about the tactial nuisance of Counter Strike and I could only find my Half Life CD, not the box with the CD key.

Once the 360 version hits £25 I'll see what the state of play it before deciding on format. And if I do get the 360 version, and it's as good as everyone says, I can see me getting the PC version as well - Steam is great, it's incredibly easy to download a title one evening just to try something new. I've only resisted it so far because I've not reinstalled Steam since formatting my PC last month....

[rmoxon]

You're wrong there. The mere fact that the hunters and smokers can incapacitate a player so that they need rescuing before they are killed. Even on the easier difficulties, a player is still vulnerable to a hidden hunter and will need rescuing.

It's obviously acceptable to dislike L4D, but to say it is not original at all is just simply wrong.

I'm not wrong, having completed the game with hardly any help at all from my A.I. friends i can safley say i am right.

I also never said I disliked it. I just said it wasnt particuarly original from a gameplay standpoint. You cant really say reviving teammates or saving them from an enemy thats grabbed them is a new feature really. You could punch an enemy that had grabbed your mate in streets of rage 2, and possibley save their life in the process.

left 4 dead is fun, but it dosnet really contain any original game mechanics at all, even the adaptive difficulty thing has been done before.

[spagmasterswift]

When I first saw vids of this game it looked like it was gonna play way too fast for me and again when watching people play it at the Eurogamer event it still looked way too fast paced, people running around like headless chickens with the gunsight wildly flying all over the place. I decided that this probably wasn't the game for me as I didn't want to fight zoombies, but more traditional zombies that give you more time to think and plan ways to hault their constant lumbering attacks.

Playing the game and simply watching it being played are such massively different experiences and L4D really highlights how film and games share so much in common some times but are often nothing alike at all. Passive it ain't. As for tactics, you get a few seconds here and there to try and come up with something more intelligent than unload gun in a certain direction, but its panic tactics like throw a petrol can into a likely bottle neck and then trying to remember to shoot it later as the horde suddenly appear behind you. I've been downed and then suddenly remembered that petrol can, managed to hit it with a pistol round and turned the tables in amazing fashion.

New stuff is still presenting itself to me too, like being able to shoot out some parts of the scenery for tactical advantage (or just to mess up your team mate for the lollins).

[FreelancePolice]

I'm not wrong, having completed the game with hardly any help at all from my A.I. friends i can safley say i am right.

I also never said I disliked it. I just said it wasnt particuarly original from a gameplay standpoint. You cant really say reviving teammates or saving them from an enemy thats grabbed them is a new feature really. You could punch an enemy that had grabbed your mate in streets of rage 2, and possibley save their life in the process.

left 4 dead is fun, but it dosnet really contain any original game mechanics at all, even the adaptive difficulty thing has been done before.

It's a bit dismissive to compare it to streets of rage - even that had the ability to wiggle out of their grip I think :P The player silhouettes through walls hasn't ever been done as a means to encourage co-op play (that I can recall) as well as the deliberate spawning of bosses to take out people who have become separated from the group. I think labelling it adaptive difficulty is doing it a bit of a disservice as there's much more going on than that. That level of adaptive difficulty and procedural game play hasn't been done before on that level.

Just my 2 cents but the way the whole package presents itself feels so fresh. You might argue that you were easily able to play through with your AI team mates but that doesn't make it any less ground breaking what they've done to make co-op gameplay not just important but essential - without merely upping the numbers of enemies. (also remember the bots will play cooperatively - although I've heard stories of them cheesing it in the showdowns at the end of the campaigns )

[QualityChimp]

Sheesh! Stop pulling each other's pigtails and just get a room!

Right, I'm going to start hinting about this game for Christmas from my wife (not sure how you drop zombies into everyday conversation, but hey!).

However, I'm away on holiday all over Christmas so I probably won't be able to play this properly until the new year.

So... if I come back and find that you're not playing this anymore, Brats, you're in trouble! I'm going to find you and get some co-op action in with you!

[Brats]

Done! I know I'm still going to be playing this. It just ticks all the right boxes for my type of game.

[MrMarbles]

I'm not wrong, having completed the game with hardly any help at all from my A.I. friends i can safley say i am right.

Please try playing it with human team-mates filling all roles on a difficulty above normal before safely saying you're right.

[rmoxon]

Please try playing it with human team-mates filling all roles on a difficulty above normal before safely saying you're right.

Please try reading my original post before you think you are.

I played it on hard, and I have played it with humans as well too, but I was talking about how the gameplay only requires other human players on the highest level becuase there are more zombies. Youre outnumbered if you play solo as the A.I. is rubbish.

its nothing to do with requiring any more team work than somthing like Horde mode on gears 2.

Brats was just arguing with me becuase he likes to argue I think.

[FreelancePolice]

I'd like to investigate but I think the zombie numbers are the same on all difficulties except they do more damage on the higher levels so you end up being downed more. They might throw waves more often but I reckon the waves are the same size on all difficulties.... I might be spouting crap though :P