Half-Life 2 (PC)

[demon9k]

although judging this from pre-release code is obviously a very silly thing to do and I intend to re-evaluate these opinions on the full release of said games

I totally agree. I have not played the Half-Life 2 leak yet but the Doom 3 one was totally amazing and thats why I am looking forward to it the most but who knows how both the full games will compair.

[JammyD]

Summer 2004 for HL2?

Valve's director of marketing Doug Lombardi has spoken out about a likely release date for the hugely anticipated PC FPS Half-Life 2. While refusing to commit to a specific date, Lombardi told finance site CNN Money that the developer is currently aiming towards "this summer for the completion of Half-Life 2".

I was expecting more like, end of April, but hey, I still haven't got a PC to play it on.

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/news/news_story.php?id=101070

[Spatial]

#cough# vapour wear #cough#

[Ish]

"this summer for the completion of Half-Life 2".

And here was me thinking it was all finished and ready for christmas until someone stole it....

Now I'm not suggesting that there wasn't really a theft - but it sounds like it might have turned out to be a handy smokescreen.

For the time being I'll have to join spatial in the vapourware coughing session I think.

[nips]

I think vapourware is a little harsh. It's not like it's been delayed for years. While the September release may have been a hard goal, April to Summer is only 3 months delay, and it's not like they are telling us three days before the release. They are giving us a lot of time.

We'll see! I'm excited!

[Spatial]

I see what your saying, but there's only so many times you can tell someone it'll be just another three months before they stop taking you seriously ( swap Valve for a local plumber, and swap release of the game for coming to fix a leaky pipe )

Its been `another three months` for the past 6 months really, and I'm guessing in gaming development you can achieve one hell of a lot in that space of time ( specially given the build that we'd seen in the E3 vids )

If they've indicated Autumn 2003, then Christmas, then ( possibly February - though I'm not 100% that Valve said this ), if not April, now the Summer, there was no way in hell that it was going to be ready for September 2003.

My comment of vapour wear wasn't altogether serious, but it's starting to feel that way and its a little bit farcical all this release date nonsense now.

Nowhere near Duke Nuken Forever standards but it's got to come a close second in the `will they wont they` category.

Still, I have no doubt that when Valve deliver it'll be good stuff, but will it have been worth all the extra time it supposed to have taken ?

The game will have to be something pretty spectacular if its going to be memorable enough to overshadow the delay and the silly goings on regarding its release

[nips]

It was apparent that your statement was in jest, but without more information it's impossible to say either way. Correct the date has been pushed back, but the official changes I've heard of are: from Sept 30th, to April '04 to Summer '04.

Clearly the game was runnning well, well enough for a hacker to steal a pretty accomplished game (I'm led to believe). While I'm a little unsure as to whether there was any real chance of a Sept 30th release, it seems silly to come out from under a rock, talk to EDGE after years of secrecy, offer a good video at e3 and maintain a Sept 30th release date until the final seconds, unless they were nearing the end of development.

I'm not a programmer or an atrist, and I know little about law and the ramifications of code theft and business dynamics, but for all I know, it could be, and is, quite true that Valve have to re-code large portions of the game to avoid piracy and cheating and to create a better game for all of us. I'm the kind of person who'd rather wait 6 months more for a better game, so I'm probably biased and optimistic about the situation, but for all I know the theft was a serious problem that put the company in serious legal problems and led to the re-development of large portions of the game.

Apparently it took valve 6 (72 months) years to create a complete game ready to be shipped on spet 30th. If 25% of the game has to be re-written and changed, and that takes 8 months, it's 10 months faster than it took them in the first place. I'm just plucking numbers from the air really, but this delay doesn't seem that long when we're talking about the whole development cycle.

It doesn't seem like such a big delay to me. Halo 2 was just delayed for appx the same amount of time and it doesn't seem unreasonable, and Bungie aren't working under the pressures of litigation and security scares and everything else that came as a result of the event.

This game is only going to be made better by a delay! But if those bastards don't hurry up I'm going to cut someone!

[Ish]

but for all I know the theft was a serious problem that put the company in serious legal problems and led to the re-development of large portions of the game.

I think thats hit the nail on the head.

Its not going to have been so much technical problems that would cause a delay following code theft. More the legal issues - I speak as someone who is a programmer and who has run a business and who has run into legal problems with that business (and boy do I wish I hadn't)!

First technically!

There are only so many ways of plugging security holes in software. Most security problems (which I figure the problems were if the game was anywhere near a releaseable state) would have been in Steam (which seemed a pointless investment to me anyway - all that development and hype for basically a glorified download manager) and in the cheating side of things I guess. With the code being stolen (if those portions were stolen) then the problem created would largely be one of any holes suddenly being in full public view. But those are precisely the kind of things that hackers exploit in all software anyway. They'd figure them out sooner or later, and probably sooner in such a high profile title.

I would also point out that a tight security system (either in the multiplayer side of things or Steam) doesn't (or shouldn't) rely on the source code being secret.

Now legally!

But the legal issues (licenced physics system right?) would have taken far longer to resolve. And, in all likelihood, been more expensive to resolve. I guess companies effected would have been the supplier of the physics system (Havoc?) and the deal with ATI. On which ATI must have been forecasting a large number of sales and so would have been as peeved as Havoc.

Its conceivable that ongoing legal wrangles with companies such as this could cause a problem. But in the case of ATI it would be in there own interest to exedite matters (though what common sense doesn't always come into play once the lawyers scent blood). And I suspect the same goes for Havoc - sure there source code might have been made public. But they would want the royalties. And the best defence against theft of there code is to basically be aggressive against anybody they suspect is making unauthorised use of it or stealing patented ideas (I hate the software patent system, I think its stupid, economically ludicrous, and purely in the interests of lawyers - but thats a whole other issue). I'm not doubting the complexity of physics systems and such like - but for anyone wanting to create there own the maths of it (and the implementation of it to a degree) is actually fairly well understood. Specific optimisation tricks could be nicked and ideas gleaned. But over the length of a long legal wrangle someone else will have figured it out anyway - there are so many smart people out there its unbelievable... And with all this being so any game developer with half an ounce of sense would probably be at pains to make it clear they've not used this source code. The merest hint would cause the lawyers to get involved. And in the current dev. climate that would probably mean the end for all but the biggest companies capable of absorbing a cost like that.

So its hard to figure out - either companies are behaving like short sighted idiots (fairly likely) or Valve is using this as a smokescreen (just as likely).

Anyway - now I've rambled on far more than I intended to.

I'm still looking forward to the game. I hope its everything I, errr, hoped.

[nips]

I've never used steam, but it sounds like a very good idea. The implications of it, to me, seem to extend much further than a glorifed download manager. The ability to download the game and updates and such forth makes it easier, so there is less to worry about for the consumer. I like the idea that the game will automatically download levels and patches and textures and sound files and all the rest to make a better experience. And becuase you pay Valve upfront through your credit card, it avoids further hassle when mods like Counter-Strike, Day of Defeat or whatever come through. It reduces the need for retail versions in store, cuts out the middle man, allows cheaper games to be released and with better profits for the company. The only people who lose out are the high street, and they have to sort themselves out anyway or they'll consistently lose out to the internet!

The other good point about steam is that if every game is played through thier network or system, it'll make the control of cheating much easier. If an exploitation of code arises, becuse every person who uses this is using it through steam, then they will hopefully be caught sooner and create less problems for other users. And of course, when a solution is found, it'll automatically be downloaded by everyone to prevent further cheating. It avoids the necessity of things like Punk Buster and the Q3A-PB alliance, and so saves money time and effort... in theory.

The problem arises when the source code is released before the game is released so people can exploit it before a system is even set up. And the ramifications of the source code for steam goes further than auto-aiming hacks as people could steal credit card info and such like. If an install is released there is limited access to the source code and it is therefore harder to hack, even with the SDK and such like. When the code is open, anyone can do anything with it for good, or for bad, and that makes the who situation worse and Steam become counter-productive even before it is released. So they have to make the whole thing again, this takes time and everyone gets pissed off.

I've kinda rambled sorry, I hope what I have written above is clear, but I can't really think straight atm!

Another concern for me is the leak of large sections of the what may be considered 'pre-code' for Counter-Strike 2. I've been led to believe by people on this forum and on others that there was a foundation for Counter-Strike 2 in the Half-Life 2 source code. Clearly this would make cheating and such like so much easier. Imagine, a potentially brilliant game shot down before it was even released. Crackers and such like would be half way towards cheats before the game is released.

So much pressure is on Valve to hide the game they've created and pactch up any potential problems by re-writing large sections of the game becuase the people who try to **** up the games by cheating have got a head start now.

It's all ****ed up. I'd much rather wait 8 more months and make sure that the game isn't ruined by hackers and crackers and all those chumps in the first 3 months after release.

If Half-Life 2 is anything like Half-Life 1, then many people will use it to make mods and even whole new games. If they already know how through released code then no one will get any royalties and people may be a little anxious to use HL2 code becuase of a fear that people will hack the code in a very short period of time...

...one again I'm rambling, but I've got so many concerns and I really want this game to do well on its merits as a good game becuase I want another Half-Life experience. And I hope to get a Broadband connection and play some online games and I don't want that experience runied.

[DaveW]

From the Inquirer on the CNN article:



quote:
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The piece suggests the delay in delivering game has been due to well-publicised theft of game's source code. Does that mean that when the code was nicked, it wasn't just copied, it was totally nicked, so that Valve had to start again from scratch? Hmm.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Valve are full of crap. Why can't they just admit that the game was nowhere near finished on the release date. In fact it was only 10% done. I doubt they can do the other 90% of this game by this summer either.

I am Jack's total loss of respect for Valve.

[nips]

But that doesn't make any sense! How can the game have one been 10% completed when they were able to show such complete actions and sections during E3? How was a hacker able to steal large quantities of a game which were compilable into a full running game minus some textures and things if the game was only 10% complete? How could Valve possibly expect to write the other 90% game this decade if it took them 6 years to write 10% of the game? Why would you increase publicity to greatly to repeat spet 30th when there is so little of a game after so mcuh secrecy? And let's face it, if the game was nicked (which seems unlikey, you'd notice if large sectiopns of the game were missiong from the computer) they could just download it again from teh web and amend it so it wasn't exploitable.

That just doesn't add up.

Do you have a link to that article Dave, as I think I need to read more becuase what you've posted doesn't quite make sense?

[Chadruharazzeb]

The sections they showed at E3 was all they'd done I reckon. Sure the engine may have been finished (or as good as), but the actual game hadn't even been started.

Wankaaaah's....

[Ravon]

Face it, there was never a theft, it was just the stuff from E3 put out in the hands of the people, they had only done the bits we all saw.

Valve were doing all this to give them more time., and to get the ball rolling on the pre orders.

Its the type of thing that M$ would do..

[Ish]

I've kinda rambled sorry, I hope what I have written above is clear, but I can't really think straight atm!

Its alright - its a well understood phenomenon - HL2 delay fever! We've all got it

But back on Steam - seriously, an app dealing with credit cards really really cannot rely on source code secrecy based security. Thats not security at all. It would be broken in days. Really.

Take encryption as an example (PGP, SSL). They're not reliant on source code being secret. Or algorithms being secret. They're reliant on private keys being secret. But if someone steals your private key all you do is generate a new one and republish the public key.

Now I know far far less about protecting games from cheats. But even there - if your relying on your algorithms being secret your screwed from day one. Someone determines will break it. Quickly. They always do.... you may as well not bother.

Which leads me straight back to my either they're arsing round with legal issues. Or it really wasn't finished. Who knows.... personally I suspect the latter.

Oh - one other thing on Steam. Valve are a games company. A very profitable one. And I think they should stick to making games. Particularly when they seem to have enough problems getting them out - never mind diversifying into things they know little about...

[nips]

Valve are a games company. A very profitable one. And I think they should stick to making games. Particularly when they seem to have enough problems getting them out - never mind diversifying into things they know little about...

Totally. Let's get Half-Life 2 onto shop shelves and then worry about all this on-line stuff. Or get another company to do all that lark, and let Valve get on with creating a game!

We should start a petition