Deadly Premonition / Red Seeds Profile (previously "Rainy Woods")

[kingmobster]

Ok, I'll buy it as well. Too many people have recommended it now.

[Mayhem]

LOL @ Jon there. The thing is, I rather agree

[JazzFunk]

^(cheesy grin megaz at the above) @ kingmobster, doitdoitdoitdoitoditdoitdoitdoitdoit.

A very weird, almost psychotic aside here, one which is entirely true, happened this very afty.

Me and this other porter were tasked with taking an empty bed up to the delivery suite (where babies are born, you take an empty bed up to theatres and the woman n' baby are put on it after the birth, to be taken down to the post-natal ward). So, anyway, we get this empty bed up to the delivery suite, we are invited to take part in a 'charity tombola', 5 tickets for a quid. The prizes are four bottles of red n' white wine, one bottle of Wolf Blass cava and about 12/13 tubs of Roses-style chocs. Bar the lottery, I don't gamble at all, yet I managed to snag a bottle of First Cape Cabernet Sauvignon, and my fellow porter snagged a bottle of First Cape Chenin Blanc/Chardonnay, pretty remarkable stuff!!!

So anyway, as we were both there, they happen to have a lass who's just given birth going back down, to the post-natal ward. We get all the drips sorted out, nestle our respective red/white bottles of wine at the very bottom of her bed, directly beneath her feet, we're taking the woman down to the post-natal ward on a bed and my colleague asks her if she has a name for the child and she says "We were thinking Zach, maybe Jake" and I suddenly feel gushing but a tad psychotic, realise a DP reference here would definitely NOT be appreciated and might possibly lead me to be sectioned and merely said "I think Zach sounds best, Jake's a bit..." and then door-opening events took over and we's got her on the ward.

But, yeah, Zach. If she'd said 'York', my brain might have died and been reborn as electric metals.

[Neon Ignition]

Imagine if she takes your advice and goes with Zach... a game so AMAZE that it will have affected someone's whole life who hasn't even played it

[crocky-chocky]

Maybe we should all rebuy/buy Spy Fiction (SWERY's previous game) on PS2, play through that and discuss it - I had it a few years back and kind of wrote it off about five levels in, interesting though it was (a wonky MGS but with oddness and disguises galore), I found it pretty fiddly back then. Now I've played DP, I'm deffo gonna rebuy this, it's like ?2 everywhere (though I guess it'll up in value a bit).

Heh. Just started this last night after picking up a crusty copy of it in CEX for ?2.50.

The action aspect of it doesn't hold up so well, but when it focuses on the simple joys of exploration and puzzles, it's a delight. There's wonky charm in abundance too.

It's basically a mix of MGS2 and Mission Impossible (a game which I have an odd soft spot for).

I proper freaked when

->Open Spoiler<-

Forest Kaysen showed up

. Brilliant!

Oh, and your playthrough impressions in here have been a great read J-Funk.

[Sketcz]

Yes, I too bought Spy Fiction, off Amazon for ?2.80, am just waiting for delivery now.

[JazzFunk]

Talk about Sod's Law in action, there was a PS2 copy of Spy Fiction in Blockbusters, been sitting around for months at ?1.95 (prior to me playing DP and being SWERY-unaware). Popped in the other day, assuming it'd still be there but they've put all their preowned PS2 stuff back to "3 for ?10", plus I didn't see Spy Fiction.

Got two days off, Weds and Thurs, gonna try Cash Generator, CEX and Cash Converters (if the Leeds one finally opens...) Kind of like to buy my games 'commando', go out into the streets and find them as absolutely cheap as possible (blame OCD).

PS: Still wistfully remembering DP stuff, how you could

->Open Spoiler<-

seek your fortune many times in the coffee and the abstract bull**** you'd reap, the squirrels, Ushah's chess obsession + the Fiona Freckles subplot, the "Legendary Guitar Grecotch", peeping through Thomas' window into that lonely apartment before I was even aware what was going on

, loads and loads and loads more little things, it's like some warm uncle who used to tell me fantastically interesting stories as a child, he's like James Stewart but better, and it's like he died last week.

PS: @ crocks, cheers mate.

[pointlessalias]

Been playing through this, and absolutely loving it. Fascinating to read through JazzFunk's day by impressions of the game! Bit of a random thought-splurge to follow (Sorry 'bout that!) but the single biggest takeaway for me has been just how many seemingly terrible design-decisions actually turn out to work in the games favour.


The lack of way-pointing on the map, for example, initially seemed completely baffling to me. In practice navigating it turned out to be one of the things which really helped to make the place feel 'alive', and definitely encouraged a connection between myself and Agent Yorke. When he mutters 'looks like I'm back in the boondocks again', early on in the game, it really does reflect the player experience. Compared to something like GTA 4, with its super-fancy navigation system, it makes sense that somewhere like Greenvale would be 'off-radar' and require more old-fashioned techniques to get around. (It's a pretty bold and progressive move to use your actual game-design as a means of bolstering a players connection with its narrative thrust ? the only point of comparison I can think of is maybe Suda 51, and the stripped-down overworld used in the first No More Heroes game. I always read that as a kind of affectionate allusion to the limited cultural-horizons/geeky tunnel-vision of it's otaku-styled lead character. But while Suda 51 left the player with a largely barren and time-consuming over-world to deal with long after his point had been made, Swery works really hard to engage the player with tiny details, like Agent Yorkes' in-car chat, and all the incidental stuff in the world.)


The character-animation too, while on the face of it repetitive and maybe even a bit wooden, I found completely endearing and totally convincing. The Swery talk from GDC which Scetcz linked to a few pages back is really enlightening actually - especially where he talks about giving characters ?signature poses? and the like. Most critical-appraisals have tended to focus on the games lack of budget to explain away the use of repeated animations ? like it was mo-capped in an afternoon or something ? but I think there might be a more conscious design-ethic at play than people give Swery credit for. By using an obviously artificial aesthetic it's necessary to accept the game on its own terms. He isn't simply using CGI to blindly ape cinema, but utilising a set of recognisable ticks, quirks, and mannerisms as the building blocks for his narrative.

->Open Spoiler<-

George's hilariously dismissive arm-gesture, Emily's coquettish little waves, Keith's ridiculous rock 'n' roll posturing; non of them are exactly realistic, but the games cast feels more real to me than any other in recent memory.

Maybe it's similar to the difference between theatre/surrealist art, and realistic-cinema, ie; an obviously artificial set-up which establishes it's own unique set of visual-signifiers, versus an attempt to mimic 'reality', but the Lynch comparisons go beyond just tone and setting here. It's also an interesting (and I think pretty successful) way of sidestepping the whole 'uncanny-valley' thing a lot of games' CGI-sequences can suffer from.


Best of all though, for me, is the sheer amount of back-story interwoven into the main game, even for seemingly minor characters ? and the way that these details are used to give meaning and purpose to the side-quests. It really bolsters the feeling that Greenvale is a real place with a real history.

->Open Spoiler<-

The former beauty-queen turned roving crazy, for example, with her ever-cooling pot serving as some kind of nutsy allegory for ageing; or the fact that you actually need to finish a completely different characters' set of sub-quests to gain the full story.

Only Deus Ex packs more meaningful nuggets of background information into the nooks and crannies of its gameworld.


Even the initially dodgy-seeming voice-samples used for the dying monsters seem to make some sort of sense in light of the

->Open Spoiler<-

games ending. They're basically the same line of dialogue played back at different speeds. Is it 'reaching' to wonder if this is deliberate? The meaning of the combat sequences is never truly revealed, but perhaps the phrase ?I don't want to die? was the last utterance of Zack's mother. Could the combat-sequences be depicting Zack mentally-locked in this frozen moment of time (the period immediately before he meets 'Yorke', remember), repeating the same sequence of events in his head, essentially fighting against himself and his past. Who knows, but the riddles the game leaves are fascinating.

I'm convinced that much of this is deliberate, and that the games quirks and eccentricities exist by design, rather than Deadly Premonition being simply a low-budget ?so bad it's good? game. I also love Swery's answers to the question of how he would have changed the game if the budget were higher. (In GamesTM a few months back he said ?If I still had budget left over, I would increase the number of animals outside?, and last year he told the Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...-interview.htm) that he'd just have spent any extra time and money on 'lovely useless elements' rather than improvements to the core game!)


The man's a demented ruddy genuis!

[Sketcz]

For someone who only has 21 posts, despite having joined in 2004, I like the cut of your gib, sir. This paragraph especially:

Maybe it's similar to the difference between theatre/surrealist art, and realistic-cinema, ie; an obviously artificial set-up which establishes it's own unique set of visual-signifiers, versus an attempt to mimic 'reality', but the Lynch comparisons go beyond just tone and setting here. It's also an interesting (and I think pretty successful) way of sidestepping the whole 'uncanny-valley' thing a lot of games' CGI-sequences can suffer from.

Like others in this topic I've always felt that it was a genuinely good game, as opposed to "so bad it's good". As more than one reviewer has also said, it's the kind of experience which is uniquely appreciated through games - it's not just the story or atmosphere, which could have been conveyed through other mediums, but the fact that you can interact, spy on characters, and pick up so much more because it's a game.

There's also plenty of scope for analysis:

->Open Spoiler<-

The only people who seem to see/notice/fight the zombies in present day Greenvale are outsiders: York and Emily. And I've read some interesting theories on whether it's all just a figment of their imagination, seeing as how they're both targeted by Kayson.

Also, one of the wrong options when dealing with Kayson on-stage, with Emily in the chair, results in him talking about merely being a representative of some greater, older evil force. Implying there's more to it than just him.

[JazzFunk]

Excellent post, pointlessalias, I haven't got much time to post and feel a tad deprived of enthusiasm for games right now (let's just say it's best not forcing oneself to play through the original Just Cause not long after playing this!!!!!) but I'm chuffed you are appreciating this.

The lack of way-pointing on the map, for example, initially seemed completely baffling to me. In practice navigating it turned out to be one of the things which really helped to make the place feel 'alive', and definitely encouraged a connection between myself and Agent Yorke. When he mutters 'looks like I'm back in the boondocks again', early on in the game, it really does reflect the player experience. Compared to something like GTA 4, with its super-fancy navigation system, it makes sense that somewhere like Greenvale would be 'off-radar' and require more old-fashioned techniques to get around. (It's a pretty bold and progressive move to use your actual game-design as a means of bolstering a players connection with its narrative thrust – the only point of comparison I can think of is maybe Suda 51, and the stripped-down overworld used in the first No More Heroes game. I always read that as a kind of affectionate allusion to the limited cultural-horizons/geeky tunnel-vision of it's otaku-styled lead character. But while Suda 51 left the player with a largely barren and time-consuming over-world to deal with long after his point had been made, Swery works really hard to engage the player with tiny details, like Agent Yorkes' in-car chat, and all the incidental stuff in the world.)

I completely agree, the map IS awful but it also forces you to get to know the game better. Even after playing it for over 89 hours(!), I *still* couldn't navigate the damn thing properly (the SWERY65 bar was the central point I seemed to navigate from, get my head around things) Sometimes it feels as though, because you develop such an attachment to this game, you're forgiving it for its flaws but in some way these 'flaws' symbiotically create a realistically loveable whole. When you're slightly lost in a big place, it feels vaster, has more mystery, I still feel slightly lost in Greenvale, it still feels vast.

I'm convinced that much of this is deliberate, and that the games quirks and eccentricities exist by design, rather than Deadly Premonition being simply a low-budget “so bad it's good” game. I also love Swery's answers to the question of how he would have changed the game if the budget were higher. (In GamesTM a few months back he said “If I still had budget left over, I would increase the number of animals outside”, and last year he told the Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...-interview.htm) that he'd just have spent any extra time and money on 'lovely useless elements' rather than improvements to the core game!)

I think that point totally nails why this game has such an appeal, those 'useless elements' enrich this no end. Its recognition of so-called 'mundanity' does serve to entwine you even more to the world, because the 'pointless' elements of things, even in real life, subtly shape and bulk out the way you perceive people/environments, creates familiarity, adds flavour. I can recognise the appeal of nicely-cooked food, I do have an almost autistic knowledge of near-forgotten, cult 80s films, I have been tasked with moving boxes of stock around in the backrooms of shops. And all that is really pointless to the flow of the plot, yet is entirely necessary to the game's appeal, because it strikes a chord with the player. It's great how there are a few farms that are just there. The fields of horses, they're just there, not rideable, not killable, they have no bearing on the plot of the game in any way. They create a sense of something that is not there in 99% of games. Do I really give that much of a **** about the world that Halo is set in when all i really do in it is shoot stuff and move from A>B>C>D>Finished? I totally care about Greenvale (pretty weird to write that, seeing as it's just a game) and much of that is down to SWERY65's 'lovely useless elements'.

Bad thing now, at least for me, though, is the fact that prior to playing Deadly Premonition, I smoked 3-6 cigarettes per day, whereas during and after playing it, witnessing York light up at every opportunity, my smoking more than doubled, I'm on about 9-14 a day right now (just hope I don't go back to being a 30-a-dayer!)

Like others in this topic I've always felt that it was a genuinely good game, as opposed to "so bad it's good". As more than one reviewer has also said, it's the kind of experience which is uniquely appreciated through games - it's not just the story or atmosphere, which could have been conveyed through other mediums, but the fact that you can interact, spy on characters, and pick up so much more because it's a game.

Yeah, it IS genuinely good, if it was a genuinely unplayable game, then I doubt this thread would ever had 'lived' as long as it has. Though the mechanics may initally seem broken, they're more than adequate. The aiming can be wobbly but it works well enough, there are actually no game-breaking elements in how this thing plays. It's nowhere near as slick and blockbustery as a CliffyB game, maybe it's a tad unglamourous visually compared to other games when considering the main 'look' you will primarily be encountering (ie. Greenvale by day & the otherworld bits) but this merely works to the game's advantage, you never quite expect it to dole out the excessive beauty it eventually does.

On a slightly sad note, bit of a bummer yesterday, went to Wakefield (my favourite 'spot' for buying games) fully expecting to find a cheap copy of Spy Fiction. Ninja Games was closed for some reason (I hope not permanently?) but scoured everywhere else, Cash Converters, Cash Generator, CEX, all the charity shops but to no avail.

Did manage to nab PC Fahrenheit for a quid and Silent Hill Homecoming (wondering THAT'll compare to this) for a gloriously cheap ?3.49, though.

[vanpeebles]

Bad thing now, at least for me, though, is the fact that prior to playing Deadly Premonition, I smoked 3-6 cigarettes per day, whereas during and after playing it, witnessing York light up at every opportunity, my smoking more than doubled, I'm on about 9-14 a day right now (just hope I don't go back to being a 30-a-dayer!)

What ever you do, don't play Yakuza 4!!

[Sketcz]

I have to admit, as an ex-smoker, after seeing him enjoy one on such a regular basis I started having cravings again myself. It certainly gets inside your mind, doesn't it?

[pointlessalias]

There's also plenty of scope for analysis:

->Open Spoiler<-

The only people who seem to see/notice/fight the zombies in present day Greenvale are outsiders: York and Emily. And I've read some interesting theories on whether it's all just a figment of their imagination, seeing as how they're both targeted by Kayson.

->Open Spoiler<-

Yeah, there are definately a number of different ways to interprete the combat sequences. For the longest time I actually thought Agent Yorke was going to turn out to be the killer, with the combat sections eventually linked to some grand reveal at the end depicting him as completely delusional. I prefer that it's left more ambigious than that though. And Emily getting involved in one of the zombie sequences did completely throw me at first - but from a narrative perspective I guess it makes total sense. She literally enters Yorke's world. Given that the relationship between the two characters has been kept relatively subtle and low key until that point, it feels like a really big deal, something symbolically significant. Given what comes next, I think that's a masterstroke.

Even by the end of the game I was left with niggling doubts about Yorke. There's the relative lack of fanfare at the end; the way that the death of his mother and the death of Emily both serve as character-pivotal book-ends to Agent Yorke's story (one as the catalyst for the appearance of 'Yorke', the other as the catalyst for him acknowledging himself as 'Zach'); even the fact that at one point midway through the game, where Agent Yorke is trying to rationalise his feelings about Emily whilst in 'converstion' with Zach, he actually directly compares her effect on him to feelings from his past which very obviously relate to his mother) - all of these things make him suspect. Any halfway competent pyschology undergrad would at least have their doubts about him, surely?

Despite this, in-game, my mind pretty much literally rejects the idea that Yorke/Zach is anything other than that which he presents himself as. I'm not sure any other medium could have that effect. Deadly Premonition really makes the player complicit and invested. The idea that I may have spent tens of hours playing a pyschopath is simply abhorrent. Yet... I have doubts, about almost everything that has 'happened' in the game. Like many others in this thread, post-endgame, Greenvale really is a rather uncomfortable place.

maybe it's a tad unglamourous visually compared to other games when considering the main 'look' you will primarily be encountering (ie. Greenvale by day & the otherworld bits) but this merely works to the game's advantage, you never quite expect it to dole out the excessive beauty it eventually does.

Definately. Games have been technically at a standard good enough to depict affecting worlds for years now - it's a real shame that so few do. So often there's just a sense of nerdy intrigue at what is being acomplished technically, in lieu of any genuine engagement. Look how nice the particle-physics are, gasp at this or that effect; in many ways I sometimes wonder if a constant obsession with graphical advancement doesn't detract from the underlying fiction being presented visually. It's probably a gross misquotation but I'm reminded of the Black Box Recorder song 'Watch The Angel, Not The Wire'. Too often in games we're encouraged to do the latter, almost by design.

Bad thing now, at least for me, though, is the fact that prior to playing Deadly Premonition, I smoked 3-6 cigarettes per day, whereas during and after playing it, witnessing York light up at every opportunity, my smoking more than doubled, I'm on about 9-14 a day right now (just hope I don't go back to being a 30-a-dayer!)

Oh cripes - I've always had a weakness for coffee and cigarettes, so I can relate to that! I particularly like the way he seems to light-up at completely innapropriate times, too.

->Open Spoiler<-

"What's that? I'm entering a building crawling with zombies, there are people unaccounted for, and there's a killer on the loose?!!! Huh. Well, I'm not going another step until I've smoked this, I can tell you that right now..."

[k0pp0]

Soo.. just started this. I won't give a running commentary, but I'm going to be interested to see how gains a hold over the other games I've got on the boil at the moment, and my fairly restrictive gaming hours..

[charlesr]

Remember to check which sidemissions can be done on your particular chapter before you carry on (somewhere in the options menus)