Osama Bin Laden killed

[fishbowlhead]

They are only doing what we ourselves would do if put in the same situation, someone invades your country on false pretences (in this case it was looking for wmd's, but we really wanted the oil) and there was factions not willing to accept it and fought back.

Its human nature, what did the US expect to happen they all just roll over and except it, you only have to look at history to know the arab nations never accept that.


But of course we need all that oil so we can continue driving our nice uneconomic cars around with air con

[Number45]

If oil was the sole reason for the Iraqi invasion, then I'd struggle to disagree. I'm a glass half full person though, and until I'm provided with concrete evidence that was the case (and not poor intelligence, for example) then I'll believe that the intentions were to try and safeguard the future of their country/planet/etc.

EDIT: Wait, are you saying that Bin Laden is the way he is with the US because of their invasion of Iraq? I'm not sure that's the case, I'm sure I read that he had opposed the Iraqis in the build up to that conflict.

[fishbowlhead]

If oil was the sole reason for the Iraqi invasion, then I'd struggle to disagree. I'm a glass half full person though, and until I'm provided with concrete evidence that was the case (and not poor intelligence, for example) then I'll believe that the intentions were to try and safeguard the future of their country/planet/etc.

EDIT: Wait, are you saying that Bin Laden is the way he is with the US because of their invasion of Iraq? I'm not sure that's the case, I'm sure I read that he had opposed the Iraqis in the build up to that conflict.

Well without speaking to him and hearing his side of the story and evidence as to why he hates the US so much, (he started with the soviet invasion which was another illegal war of course), i cant really comment on why he planned anything he did terrorism wise. The people of iraq of course oppose us because of the the above fact, i cant comment on bin ladens personal reasons.

But due to the complete lack of any facts that are released from the US on anything regarding the word "terrorism", and the constant propaganda and lies they spread (the uk as well) i dont even believe that the guy is even dead, personally of course. Because again, there's zero evidence and facts to back up the US claim that he is even dead, zero.


Apologies for my ranting, been a bad day.

[dvdx2]

Videos on wikileaks of US military actions (and I doubt the British are much better) suggest we don't really care about innocent casualties. We just pretend we do cos it fits our self labelled 'good guy' role. As for who struck first, I've no idea, I suppose it depends on how far you're willing to trawl through history; the joint US/British insertion of the puppet Shah in Iran in the 1950's when we took away their freedom and right to self govern so we could make money from oil? The Crusades on the Holy Land in the 11th century? The Persian invasion of ancient Greece in the 5th century BC? There are probably even earlier conflicts that escaped the history books. The thing is we can only be responsible for our own actions. We don't have to react to violence with violence. We choose to.

I doubt very much that these fundamentalists can be talked to and will keep on killing irrespective, so how exactly can you react to them without returning violence? Surely you cant just sit back and do nothing? - The hatred they have for this culture is rather frightening and if they will fly 2 planes into office buildings imagine what other things they are prepared to do.

I have had my fair share, living in Belfast through the troubles - and yes a 'sort of peace' has been achieved here, through dialogue. But can you see this format working in the middle east, when the dynamics, culture, religion etc are so different?

I dont agree with what US and British forces have done either and bad things happen in war (i think soldiers who are prepared to kill innocent civilians, knowing they are innocent, are in the minority).

[Dogg Thang]

http://newsthump.com/2011/05/03/us-celebrates-assassination-of-royal-wedding-coverage/

[randombs]

There's only one workable solution:

[paul]

Without wanting to defend all of our actions, you don't think the goals themselves have any bearing on this? You don't think one goal is more 'right' than another? In some cases I'm afraid, the end justifies the means as far as I'm concerned.

I'm sure they feel the same, when what they percieve as injustice goes by without acknowledgement or action.

[averybluemonkey]

But it's not about power and control. America isn't trying to build an empire, they're trying to give these countries the chance to govern themselves democratically and independently. If you want to say that they should be forced to live under a dictatorship until such a time as they can overthrow it themselves (which will likely be never, since that's the point of a dictatorship) then you're not really being fair, are you?

I'm sorry but this is wrong.

America don't give a damn about peoples right to democracy. During the transitionary period they signed the over long term rebuilding and government contract work to major US corporations that were close to the administration. The war helped to reverse the economic decline right when Bush needed it.

You don't control a country by governing it yourself, you do it behind the scenes. It was only ever about putting in place a US friendly proxy and blowing that pipeline wide open. America has made a habbit if backroom bully boy tactics and manipulation to get what it wants. When Turkey opposed them on the UN security council the US took steps to cripple there economy in retaliation after they failed to back down to threats. Through the IMF the US has systematically dismantled many countries' welfare states, tearing down health services and blocking workers legislation. How many people died because they blocked the generic aids drugs from the market to protect US profits? There isn't a benevolent bone in that administrations body.

The terrorists didn't start this, we did, only now they have the capability to fight back.

[EDDIE M0NS00N]

There's only one workable solution:

That was so f*ckin **** that its likely to START wars! I'm surprised somebody hasnt bombed Hungary because of that song!!

[randombs]

Immortal Technique says something similar in this essay which he wrote after the recent announcement of Bin Laden's death. It's worth reading.

Thanks for the link, it was a really good essay.

[fishbowlhead]

I'm sorry but this is wrong.

America don't give a damn about peoples right to democracy. During the transitionary period they signed the over long term rebuilding and government contract work to major US corporations that were close to the administration. The war helped to reverse the economic decline right when Bush needed it.

You don't control a country by governing it yourself, you do it behind the scenes. It was only ever about putting in place a US friendly proxy and blowing that pipeline wide open. America has made a habbit if backroom bully boy tactics and manipulation to get what it wants. When Turkey opposed them on the UN security council the US took steps to cripple there economy in retaliation after they failed to back down to threats. Through the IMF the US has systematically dismantled many countries' welfare states, tearing down health services and blocking workers legislation. How many people died because they blocked the generic aids drugs from the market to protect US profits? There isn't a benevolent bone in that administrations body.

The terrorists didn't start this, we did, only now they have the capability to fight back.

On that note there was a reason Obama was completely shot down by almost all of the us senators on his US national health service idea, most of the senators are involved or funded by pharmaceutical companies, which would of cut there profit by a huge margin. Thus his idea was dead in the water before it even got the chance for a vote.

So much for democracy and choice. You can have a choice of course, just as long as that choice makes the rich richer.

[EDDIE M0NS00N]

Thanks for the link, it was a really good essay.

Agreed. Theres a lot going on in that essay, but all of it is worth noting.

[EDDIE M0NS00N]

On BBC News 24 they're giving an interview from Washington right now.

"Bin Laden resisted arrest & was shot & killed. He was not armed".

Resisted arrest but not armed?

[Brad]

You know what we need to take our minds off all this? A big wedding.

Sad that as well as being the funniest post in this thread this is also the only suggestion/comment that actually makes any sense!

All this stuff is controlled by things way beyond what we can do anything about and probably even understand. The conspiracist in me thinks that they only found Bin Laden now because it suited them to find him now.

[Charlie]

Without wanting to defend all of our actions, you don't think the goals themselves have any bearing on this? You don't think one goal is more 'right' than another? In some cases I'm afraid, the end justifies the means as far as I'm concerned.

I believe certain goals are more just, more virtuous than others, certainly, but I don't really know what America's and Britain's goals are. I know what they tell us their goals are but I don't believe them because while they preach freedom, peace and democracy, behind the scenes they're content to support dictators, content to sell weapons to nations knowing they'll be used to kill and opress innocent civilians.

Ultimately when it comes to the war on terror I don't trust or support either side, nor do I share either of their so-called visions.

I doubt very much that these fundamentalists can be talked to and will keep on killing irrespective, so how exactly can you react to them without returning violence? Surely you cant just sit back and do nothing? - The hatred they have for this culture is rather frightening and if they will fly 2 planes into office buildings imagine what other things they are prepared to do.

I have had my fair share, living in Belfast through the troubles - and yes a 'sort of peace' has been achieved here, through dialogue. But can you see this format working in the middle east, when the dynamics, culture, religion etc are so different?

I dont agree with what US and British forces have done either and bad things happen in war (i think soldiers who are prepared to kill innocent civilians, knowing they are innocent, are in the minority).

I believe anybody can be talked to. Maybe it's a naive belief but, well, there we go. It's not unusual to see ex-fundamentalists on the news used to shed insight into the war and terror and the reasons people take up the struggle, so fundamentalism can't be a one-way ticket.